THANK YOU. THERE WE GO. GOOD
MORNING. WE'D LIKE TO CALL THIS,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON BUILDING A
ZERO CARBON HYDROGEN ECONOMY.
TOGETHER WITH THE TOPIC TODAY
BEING HYDROGEN PIPELINE LEAKAGE,
SAFETY AND CONSTRUCTION. IT IS
ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING AND
TALKED ABOUT TOPICS IN
SACRAMENTO, I'M JOKING. WHEN
WE'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT,
ABOUT THIS ASPECT OF THE
HYDROGEN, IT'S NOT THE SAME AS
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE THREE
PILLARS OR SOME OF THE OTHER
THINGS THAT THAT ARE OUT THERE,
BUT IT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT
WHICH IS WHY WE WANTED TO MAKE
SURE THAT WE COVERED THIS TODAY.
SO IF WE COULD HAVE ALL OF THE
PANELISTS COME UP, WE HAVE,
CHAIRS HERE. ANY ANY PLACE LAST
PERSON HERE GETS THE LEAST.
LEAST. NICE CHAIR. RIGHT. CHAIR.
RIGHT OVER THERE. WE HAVE
ANOTHER BETTER CHAIR COMING, I
BELIEVE. RIGHT, BUT IT'S JUST AN
ASTROMECH. OH OKAY. SO THEY HAVE
TO JUST. YEAH. IF THERE'S TWO
WOULD SHARE THEIR MIC, WE'D
APPRECIATE IT, THIS MEETING ROOM
IS, NOT DESIGNED FOR THE KIND OF
, PANELS AND THE KIND OF
CONVERSATIONS THAT WE LIKE TO
HAVE, BUT, ONE OF THE THINGS I
WANT TO POINT OUT IS THAT WE
HAVE A NUMBER OF MEMBERS WHO,
THIS IS ONE OF THE BUSIEST WEEKS
FOR US. ALL OF THE COMMITTEES
ARE MEETING, AND PEOPLE HAVE TO
PRESENT THEIR BILLS AND
COMMITTEES. THEY ALSO SERVE ON
OTHER COMMITTEES. SO, MOST OF
THE MEMBERS SAID THEY WOULD BE
IN AND OUT SOMETIME DURING THIS
TODAY. BUT THE REAL VALUE OF
DOING THIS TO THE SELECT
COMMITTEE PROCESS, RATHER THAN
JUST HAVING MEETINGS, IS THAT
THIS IS ALL GOING TO BE
RECORDED. AND THAT WAY,
EVERYBODY WE SORT OF HAVE AN
OFFICIAL RECORD. AND SO THE
SELECT COMMITTEE HAS MET TWICE,
AND WE FOCUSED ON DIFFERENT
TOPICS. AND WE WOULD LIKE TO
HAVE A BODY OF WORK. WHEN WE
FINISH IN AUGUST. WE'D LIKE TO
HAVE A BODY OF WORK WHERE THE
SELECT COMMITTEES HAVE COVERED
ALL OF THE MAJOR TOPICS DEALING
WITH HYDROGEN, THE HYDROGEN
ECONOMY, AND TRYING TO MOVE
FORWARD, I KNOW WE JUST HAD THE
HYDROGEN CONFERENCE, AND THE
HYDROGEN CONFERENCE IS A LITTLE
BIT DIFFERENT APPROACH. WHAT
WE'RE TRYING TO FOCUS ON HERE IS
TO MAKE SURE WE IDENTIFY ALL OF
THE ISSUES LEGISLATORS SHOULD BE
CONSIDERING, AS THEY'RE
CONSIDERING LEGISLATION GOING
FORWARD, SO THAT ANY LEGISLATOR
WHO WANTS TO DO SOMETHING ON
HYDROGEN NOW, IN THE NEAR FUTURE
COULD LOOK AT THESE HEARINGS AND
SAY, I'M INTERESTED IN DOING
SOMETHING ON PIPELINES. AND WHAT
WERE THE ISSUES THAT WERE
BROUGHT UP BY, VARIOUS EXPERTS
IN THE ROOM. I'M INTERESTED IN
GUARDRAILS OR I'M INTERESTED IN
INCENTIVES. WE'LL HAVE ALL OF
THOSE VARIOUS TOPICS THAT WILL
BE COVERED. SO WE APPRECIATE
YOUR ATTENDANCE HERE TODAY, AND
A FEW THINGS THAT I WANT TO MAKE
SURE THAT I READ TO KICK THIS
OFF IN TERMS OF OFFICIALLY DOING
THIS, AND, WILL BE DISCUSSING
PIPELINE SAFETY LEAKAGE
DEVELOPMENT, INCLUDING THE RIGHT
OF WAY AND CONSTRUCTION,
BLENDING AND PIPELINES AND A
PURE HYDROGEN PIPELINE, THE
TOPICS ARE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT
BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF
HYDROGEN IS PUT IN THE PIPES,
WHETHER PRODUCED GASIFICATION OR
ELECTROLYSIS, WE HAVE IMPORTANT
QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER ABOUT WHAT
KIND OF STANDARDS THOSE
PIPELINES SHOULD MEET. ALTHOUGH
A DIFFERENT GAS, THERE ARE
LESSONS WE CAN LEARN FROM OUR
NATURAL GAS SYSTEM. MOST
IMPORTANTLY, HOW DO WE DO
EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO AVOID
REPEATING MISTAKES, LEAKS, ETC?
TODAY'S PANELIST OFFER A DIVERSE
SET OF VIEWS, WE HAVE
REPRESENTATIVES FROM SOUTHERN
CALIFORNIA GAS, AIR PRODUCTS,
ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND, THE
PIPELINE SAFETY TRUST,
CALIFORNIA STATE BUILDING
TRADES, UC RIVERSIDE, WHICH
CONDUCTED THE CPUC STUDY ON
HYDROGEN BLENDING. AND H2
CLIPPER, A PIPELINE COMPANY.
NOW, UNLIKE OTHER HEARINGS,
WE'RE GOING TO CONDUCT THIS AS
ONE LARGE PANEL. GIVEN THE
BREADTH OF THIS SINGLE TOPIC, I
THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE
HAVE ALL THE PARTICIPANTS WEIGH
IN ON THE GENERAL TOPIC, I HOPE
WE HAVE A HEALTHY AND ROBUST
DISCUSSION. AND I'D LIKE TO
INVITE, ANY OF YOU TO FEEL FREE
TO OFFER AN INSIGHT THAT IS
DIFFERENT FROM ONE THAT ONE OF
YOUR COLLEAGUES PRESENTS OR
FURTHER ILLUMINATES OR
IDENTIFIES A TOPIC THAT WE DON'T
IDENTIFY HERE TODAY. THE IDEA
TODAY IS TO COMPREHENSIVELY GET
ALL OF THE POINTS OF VIEW OUT ON
THE TABLE WITH OUR OTHER
POTENTIALLY MORE CONTENTIOUS
TOPICS. WE LIKE TO SAY THAT WE
WANTED YOU TO MAKE YOUR CASE IN
FRONT OF THE OPPOSITION, SO THAT
THE OPPOSITION COULD COUNTER,
AND THEN YOU COULD COUNTER THE
OPPOSITION, BECAUSE WE FEEL LIKE
THAT IS MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT
HAPPENS OFTENTIMES. THE
LEGISLATORS IS ONE STEP. HOLDER
COMES AND MEETS WITH THE
LEGISLATURE, SAYS WHATEVER THEY
WANT TO SAY, AND THERE'S NOBODY
THERE TO COUNTER IT. AND THE
BURDEN FALLS ON THE LEGISLATOR
TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHETHER THAT
WAS ACCURATE, WHAT TO DO ABOUT
THAT, ETC, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
TRYING TO SHORT CIRCUIT SO THAT
WE GET ALL THE INFORMATION OUT
AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE. AS
WE MOVE FORWARD. SO I'D LIKE TO
INVITE AARON MURPHY, THE SENIOR
ATTORNEY FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL
DEFENSE FUND, TO, JUMP UP ONTO
THE SCREEN. WHAT'S THAT? OKAY.
ALL RIGHT, SO WE WILL, WAIT, ARE
WE BEING RECORDED RIGHT NOW?
OKAY. ALL RIGHT, SO WHILE WE'RE
WAITING TO TRY TO GET AARON ON,
WE'LL ASK EACH OF YOU TO
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES, AND WE'LL
JUST START HERE AND SWEEP
AROUND, AS WE, AS WE DO THAT.
ALL RIGHT? JUST. YEAH, JUST
INTRODUCE YOURSELF AND WHO
YOU'RE WITH, AND THEN WE'LL GO
BACK AND HAVE YOU DO YOUR
OPENING COMMENTS. RIGHT, ANDREW
CONNOLLY, OUR PRODUCTS, VICE
PRESIDENT AND GENERAL MANAGER OF
LOW CARBON HYDROGEN, MARK
MOLNAR, CALIFORNIA STATE
BUILDING TRADES. OKAY NEIL NAVIN
I'M SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF
ENGINEERING, MAJOR PROJECTS AND
THE CHIEF CLEAN FUELS OFFICER
FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GAS
COMPANY. ALL RIGHT. AND, NEIL,
WHEN YOU SPEAK, YOU'RE GOING TO
NEED TO BE REAL MUCH CLOSER TO
THAT MICROPHONE, DON'T YOU TRY
IT AGAIN JUST WITH YOUR NAME.
THANK YOU. CHAIR BENNETT, MY
NAME IS NEIL NAVIN. I AM THE
SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF
ENGINEERING, MAJOR PROJECTS, AND
THE CHIEF CLEAN FUELS OFFICER
FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GAS
COMPANY. OKAY. THANK YOU. I'M
BILL KARAM THE EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE PIPELINE SAFETY
TRUST. GREAT RINALDO BRUTOCO,
I'M THE FOUNDER AND CHIEF
EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF H2 CLIPPER,
THE ONLY COMPANY THAT HOLDS
PATENTS WITH REGARD TO MOVING
LIQUID HYDROGEN AS WELL AS
GASEOUS. WE ARE NOT A PIPELINE
COMPANY, THOUGH. CHAIR BENNETT.
WE ARE A TECHNOLOGY COMPANY THAT
PERMITS OTHER PEOPLE TO USE OUR
TECHNOLOGY. THANK YOU. GOOD
MORNING. I'M AARON ROGER. I'M A
RESEARCH FACULTY AT THE CENTER
FOR ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH AND
TECHNOLOGY, OR CCR AT UC
RIVERSIDE. I'M ALSO ASSOCIATE
DIRECTOR THERE. GREAT. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH. APPRECIATE THAT, AND,
SINCE THIS IS AN OPEN PANEL, WE
WILL, GO THROUGH AND JUST ASK,
WE'VE ASKED EACH OF YOU TO BE
READY WITH 3 TO 5 MINUTES OF A,
OF AN OPENING TO KICK THIS OFF,
THE GENERAL TOPIC IS WHAT ARE
THE ISSUES THAT LEGISLATORS
SHOULD BE CONSIDERING AS WE
CONSIDER THE ISSUE OF PIPELINES
AND HYDROGEN AND THAT'S A THE
BROAD AS BROAD AS WE CAN BE,
WITH REGARD TO THAT TOPIC. AND
IN THE INTEREST OF OBJECTIVITY,
WE'RE JUST GOING TO START AND DO
IT IN THE SAME ORDER THAT YOU'RE
SEATED HERE LIKE THIS. AND SO
WE'LL START WITH ANDREW AND MR.
CHAIRMAN AND COMMITTEE MEMBERS,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'M ANDREW
CONNOLLY, VICE PRESIDENT AND
GENERAL MANAGER OF LOW CARBON
HYDROGEN FOR AIR PRODUCTS, I'VE
BEEN WITH THEIR PRODUCTS 35
YEARS, I ACTUALLY STARTED OUT
EARLY ON MY CAREER IN CALIFORNIA
, I WAS A YOUNG ENGINEER BACK IN
THE MID 90S WHEN OUR PRODUCTS
PUT ITS FIRST HYDROGEN PLANTS
AND DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM TOGETHER
IN CALIFORNIA. AT THE MOMENT, I
OVERSEE APPROXIMATELY ONLY $10
BILLION OF INVESTOR IN THE
AMERICAS IN LOW CARBON HYDROGEN.
AND IT'S A PLEASURE TO ADDRESS
THE COMMITTEE. OUR PRODUCTS IS
THE ONLY US BASED INDUSTRIAL GAS
COMPANY AND IS THE WORLD'S
LARGEST PRODUCER OF HYDROGEN. WE
HAVE ABOUT 110 HYDROGEN
PRODUCTION FACILITIES AND OVER
700 MILES OF DEDICATED HYDROGEN
PIPELINES GLOBALLY. WE'VE BEEN
IN THIS BUSINESS FOR MORE THAN
ABOUT 80 YEARS, AND IN THE
HYDROGEN BUSINESS FOR AROUND 65
YEARS. OUR PRODUCTS IS INVESTING
GLOBALLY AROUND $15 BILLION BY
2027. IN CLEAN HYDROGEN PROJECTS
AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH TO ARE
THERE TO DRIVE THE
DECARBONIZATION OAN, OF OTHER
INDUSTRIES IN THE US. THERE ARE
AROUND MORE THAN 1600 MILES OF
DEDICATED HYDROGEN PIPELINES,
WHICH WOULD DEVELOP TO SUPPORT
CURRENT MARKETS THAT USE
HYDROGEN, THE PRODUCTION
FACILITIES AND THESE PIPELINES
THAT DELIVER HYDROGEN HAVE BEEN
INSTALLED, OWNED AND OPERATED BY
THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN
COMPETITIVE MARKETS SAFELY FOR
DECADES. RESPONDING AND REACTING
TO CLEAR MARKET SIGNALS AND
MARKET DEMAND AS NEW MARKET
SIGNALS ARE BEING DEVELOPED AND
IMPLEMENTED, THE PRIVATE SECTOR
IS ALREADY COMMITTING AN
UNPRECEDENTED AMOUNT OF MONEY IN
NEW HYDROGEN INVESTMENTS TO
SUPPORT REMAKING OUR GLOBAL
ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, WITH THE
FOCUS ON TRANSITIONING OUR
GLOBAL ECONOMY AWAY FROM FOSSIL
FUELS, PRODUCING CLIMATE CHANGE
AND GREENHOUSE GASES. THERE'S A
TREMENDOUS FOCUS ON HYDROGEN'S
ROLE DECARBONIZING OUR ECONOMY
WHILE WE CONTINUE TO
APPROPRIATELY DO ELECTRIFY MANY
SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY GLOBALLY,
EXPERTS AGREE THAT CLEAN
HYDROGEN IS BEST DEPLOYED IN
HARD TO ABATE SECTORS OF THE
ECONOMY AND PRIMARILY HEAVY DUTY
TRANSPORTATION AND HEAVY
INDUSTRY. BECAUSE CLEAN HYDROGEN
IS MORE COSTLY EVEN WITH
SUBSIDIES THAN INCUMBENT ENERGY
SOURCES, IT IS CRITICALLY
IMPORTANT TO DEPLOY IT WHERE IT
DRIVES THE GREATEST
ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFIT. THIS
OCCURS IN THE AFOREMENTIONED
HEAVY DUTY TRANSPORTATION AND
HEAVY INDUSTRY SECTORS OF OUR
ECONOMY. EXCUSE ME. I'M GONNA
ASK YOU TO BRING THE MICROPHONE
A LITTLE BIT CLOSER. AND WHEN
YOU TURN AWAY FROM IT, WE LOSE
YOU QUITE A BIT. OKAY IS THAT
BETTER? THAT'S BETTER. OKAY. THE
THOSE, THOSE SECTORS ALSO IMPACT
THAT SOME OF THE FRONTLINE
COMMUNITIES WHICH ARE IN AND
AROUND, THE HEAVY INDUSTRY AND
THOSE TRANSPORTATION ROUTES
HELPING TO, ABATE PUBLIC HEALTH
CONCERNS ASSOCIATED WITH
EMISSIONS AS. TECHNICAL ISSUES
ASIDE, BLENDING CLEAN HYDROGEN
INTO NATURAL GAS GRID, WE
BELIEVE IS A SUBOPTIMAL USE OF
CLEAN ENERGY IN A SECTOR OF OUR
ECONOMY THAT WILL EITHER BE
ELECTRIFIED IN THE CASE OF
COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL
HEATING, OR WILL BE SERVED BY
THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHEN THERE
ARE APPROPRIATE MARKET SIGNALS
IN THE HEAVY INDUSTRY AND POWER
GENERATION DURING THE Q&A
PERIOD, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER MORE
SPECIFIC QUESTIONS REGARDING THE
MERITS OF BLENDING INTO NATURAL
GAS PIPELINES. CURRENTLY,
PRIVATE INDUSTRY IS INVESTING
BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE
PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION AND
DISPENSING OF CLEAN HYDROGEN
INTO THESE SECTORS,
COMPLEMENTING FEDERAL AND STATE
GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS AND
INCENTIVES. AS OUR PRODUCTS IS
THE LARGEST PRODUCER OF HYDROGEN
IN CALIFORNIA AND THE ONLY
COMPANY TO OWN AND OPERATE A
DEDICATED HYDROGEN PIPELINE
SYSTEM IN THE STATE, ARE PLEASED
TO SUPPORT THE STATEWIDE EFFORTS
TO EXPAND CLEAN, RENEWABLE
ENERGY. HYDROGEN USED IN
TARGETED PARTS OF THE ECONOMY
THAT CANNOT BE SERVED BY
ELECTRIFICATION. WE ARE FOUNDING
PARTNERS IN ARCHES, THE STATE'S
RENEWABLE HYDROGEN HUB, AND HAVE
DEDICATED CAPITAL, ALONG WITH
DOZENS OF OTHER PRIVATE
COMPETITIVE COMPANIES, TO COMMIT
TO THE OVERALL SUCCESS OF MARKET
LIFTOFF. CALIFORNIA HAS A STRONG
TRACK RECORD OF GETTING IT RIGHT
WHEN IT COMES TO THE GREEN
ECONOMY, ONE OF THE KEY NEXT
PHASES OF OUR STATE'S GREEN
ECONOMY IS LEVERAGING THE
EXISTING EFFICIENT HYDROGEN
MARKET AND ENABLING NEW, CLEAN
HYDROGEN DEPLOYMENTS THROUGH A
COMPETITIVE MARKET FRAMEWORK. IT
IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT
CALIFORNIA IS HOME TO ONE OF THE
LARGEST HYDROGEN MARKETS IN THE
UNITED STATES, SECOND ONLY TO
TEXAS. THIS MARKET WAS BORN OUT
OF THE NEED TO MEET C¯ CLEAN
FUEL STANDARDS SET BY CARB
DECADES AGO. THERE IS A HISTORY
OF STRONG HYDROGEN MARKET WITH
ITS C COMMITMENT
INFRASTRUCTURE, ALONG WITH THE
STATE'S EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP
AROUND GREEN ENERGY MARKETS, AND
IS IDEAL TO SCALE CLEAN HYDROGEN
DEPLOYMENT. THANK YOU, MR.
CHAIRMAN, FOR INVITING ME TO
PARTICIPATE TODAY, AND I'M HAPPY
TO TAKE ANY QUESTIONS FROM YOU
AND THE COMMITTEE. THANK YOU. I
THINK WE'LL HOLD THE QUESTIONS
UNTIL WE HAVE ALL OF THE
PRESENTATIONS. BUT BEFORE WE GO
TO MR. MULLINER, I THINK IF WE
INVITE AARON MURPHY TO SPEAK,
SHE WILL SHOW UP, AND I WISH I
COULD SHOW UP JUST THAT EASILY,
TOO, BUT AARON, WOULD YOU PLEASE
INTRODUCE YOURSELF, AND
HOPEFULLY THEN YOU'LL SHOW UP ON
OUR SCREEN? YES. HI. CAN YOU
HEAR ME? OKAY. WE CAN. AND THERE
YOU ARE. YOU'VE JUST SHOWN UP,
RIGHT, SCOTTY? DOWN. RIGHT. HI.
YEAH, I'M AARON MURPHY. I'M A
SENIOR ATTORNEY WITH
ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND IN
OUR ENERGY MARKETS AND UTILITY
REGULATION TEAM, I'M NORMALLY
BASED IN WASHINGTON, DC, BUT I'M
PHONING IN FROM BERLIN RIGHT
NOW, SO REALLY APPRECIATE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE
REMOTELY. ALL RIGHT. GREAT,
AARON. AND WE WILL ASK YOU TO
SPEAK AFTER WE WE'RE WORKING OUR
WAY AROUND AND YOU JUST HAPPEN
TO PHYSICALLY END UP ALL THE WAY
TO THE FAR RIGHT. SO YOU'LL BE
OUR LAST GENERAL INTRODUCTORY
COMMENTS AND THEN, THEN WE WILL
OPEN IT UP WHERE ANYBODY CAN
ANSWER QUESTIONS AS WE MOVE
FORWARD AND AS WE ASK THOSE
QUESTIONS. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU
FOR BEING HERE. WE REALLY
APPRECIATE IT. AND WE APPRECIATE
ALL OF YOU BEING HERE. MR.
MOLINAR, GOOD MORNING. THANK YOU
FOR ALLOWING ME TO BE HERE
TODAY, I AM I AM A CONSTRUCTION
WORKER. I'M A UNITED ASSOCIATION
MEMBER, BEEN A MEMBER FOR 32
YEARS. I, I STARTED OUT ON
PIPELINES. I ACTUALLY BUILT A
800 MILES GOING FROM THE
CANADIAN BORDER ALL THE WAY TO
FRESNO, THE PGA, PGT PIPELINE.
THAT'S WHAT GOT ME IN THE
INDUSTRY IN 1992. HAD IT NOT
BEEN FOR THAT PROJECT, I
WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE
ENOUGH TO PROBABLY GET IN THE
UNION AND LEARN HOW TO BECOME A
PIPELINE HELPER WELDER,
APPRENTICE, I'VE WELDED I'VE
BUILT HYDROGEN PLANTS IN THE BAY
AREA, AND I'VE WELDED PIPELINES.
AND THE THING THAT I'M HERE TO,
TO CARRY OUT IS THE TRAINING AND
THE SKILLS ARE THERE. THE
ABILITY TO WELD HYDROGEN
PIPELINE IS THERE. HYDROGEN
PIPELINE IS A LOWER CARBON TYPE
PIPELINE. FROM EVERYTHING THAT
WE'RE STUDYING THAT EVERYBODY IS
INVESTING IN MAKING SURE THAT WE
GET THIS RIGHT. BUT THE NUMBER
ONE THING THAT I KNOW IS GOING
TO MAKE IT RIGHT IS TO HAVE A
SKILLED AND TRAINED A WELL
TRAINED AND A ORGANIZATION THAT
CARES ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT,
LIKE THE STATE BUILDING TRADES
AND OUR AFFILIATES ARE THOSE
PEOPLE TO INSTALL THESE
PIPELINES AND TO BUILD THE
FACILITIES AS, AS THIS ECONOMY
AND AS THE HYDROGEN GROWS, OUR,
OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY IS TO
HELP INDUSTRY AND INDUSTRY IS
ALREADY STARTING TO CHANGE OVER.
A LOT OF POWER COMPANIES. AND
EVERYBODY IS GOING TO TRY TO
HELP FACILITATE THE, THE, THE
ECONOMY, THE CLEAN AIR AND THE
CLEAN ENERGY ECONOMY THAT WE
HAVE TO HAVE. BUT IT HAS TO BE A
MULTIFACETED, UTILIZED EVERY,
EVERY FACET OF, OF THE INDUSTRY
TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. AND SO WITH A
SKILLED AND TRAINED WORKFORCE,
WITH, UNION LABOR, OUR
APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS,
EVERYTHING THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING
FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS, WE ARE
READY TO DO THAT. AND THAT'S WHY
WE'RE HERE. THANK YOU. THANK
YOU, MR. NAVON, GOOD MORNING,
CHAIR BENNETT. IT'S A PLEASURE
TO BE HERE. THANK YOU TO THE
STAFF AND MY FELLOW WITNESSES
AGAIN. MY NAME IS NEIL NAVON.
I'M THE CHIEF CLEAN FUELS
OFFICER FOR THE SOUTHERN
CALIFORNIA GAS COMPANY, SOCAL
GAS IS THE LARGEST GAS NATURAL
GAS DISTRIBUTION COMPANY IN THE
WESTERN HEMISPHERE. WE'VE BEEN
SERVING CALIFORNIA FOR
APPROXIMATELY 160 YEARS. AND WE
ARE A PRIVATELY OWNED INVESTOR
OWNED UTILITY, FIRST AND
FOREMOST, I WANTED TO THANK THE
COMMITTEE FOR THIS IMPORTANT
CONVERSATION ON CONNECTING
INFRASTRUCTURE. INFRASTRUCTURE
IS GOING TO BE KEY TO DELIVERING
ON THE PROMISE OF HYDROGEN, THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE
NATION. AND INDEED, THE WORLD
HAS AN ENORMOUS TASK AHEAD OF
IT. IT'S GOING TO TAKE US
GOVERNMENT, INDUSTRY, EVERY
COMMUNITY AT ALL LEVELS TO
UNLOCK THE PROMISE OF DEEP
DECARBONIZATION THROUGH HYDROGEN
, TO PUT THIS INTO CONTEXT, A
GLOBAL CONTEXT, THE KYOTO
PROTOCOL WAS SIGNED IN 1997. WE
ARE EXACTLY MIDWAY BETWEEN THAT
POINT AND OUR MID-CENTURY,
AMBITIONS TO BE CARBON NEUTRAL
OR GHG NEUTRAL. SO THE TIME IS
NOW, AND WE NEED HYDROGEN AS ONE
OF THOSE TOOLS TO HELP
ACCELERATE THE ENERGY
TRANSITION, INDEED. TO GET TO
GREENHOUSE GAS NEUTRALITY, WE
NEED AN UNPRECEDENTED TECHNICAL,
ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL CHANGE
TO, MAKE THIS TAKE PLACE. THIS
SO-CALLED GAS IS ACTIVE IN A
NUMEROUS, HYDROGEN PROJECTS TO
DEMONSTRATE DECARBONIZATION FOR
CALIFORNIA, ANGELUS LINK, IS ONE
OF OUR LARGEST. IT IS OUR
PROPOSED PROJECT THAT COULD BE
THE NATION'S LARGEST CLEAN FUEL,
RENEWABLE HYDROGEN, OPEN ACCESS
PIPELINE SYSTEM, DELIVERING
CLEAN MOLECULES TO CENTRAL AND
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. OUR VISION,
IS THAT ANGELUS LINK CAN BE A
KEY CONNECTING INFRASTRUCTURE
ELEMENT THAT COULD UNLOCK THE
ABILITY TO DECARBONIZE THE HARD
TO ABATE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY,
ELECTRIC GENERATION, INDUSTRIAL
PROCESSES, HEAVY DUTY TRUCKING
AND OTHER SECTORS. I'M PLEASED
TO NOTE THAT OUR PHASE ONE WORK,
AS DIRECTED BY THE CPUC, IS
CURRENTLY UNDERWAY, WE ARE
PERFORMING ENGINEERING DESIGN
AND FEASIBILITY ANALYZES. THE
STUDIES INCLUDE SUPPLY THE
HYDROGEN SUPPLY, DEMAND, END
USE, PIPELINE CONFIGURATION,
ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS,
WORKFORCE PLANNING, PROJECT
ALTERNATIVES, RIGHT OF WAY
ANALYSIS, SAFETY AND LEAKAGE
STUDIES, OUR WORK ON SAFETY HAS
TAKEN PLACE WITH THE ASSISTANCE
OF THE HYDROGEN SAFETY COUNCIL,
A RECOGNIZED LEADER IN HYDROGEN
SAFETY, THE STUDY, WILL NOTE.
AND WHEN IT'S PUBLISHED, THE
NEWS, NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL
STANDARDS THAT MUST BE APPLIED
WHEN DEVELOPING PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE. AND IT WILL ALSO
NOTE THE AVAILABILITY OF
DETECTORS AND OTHER MEASURES
THAT WE PLAN TO DEPLOY, WHEN WE
BUILD THIS INFRASTRUCTURE,
INCLUDING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR
TECHNOLOGIES LIKE FIBER OPTIC
DETECTION IN OUR WORK ON,
LEAKAGE, STUDY HAS TAKEN PLACE
WITH INPUT FROM THE NATIONAL
FUEL CELL CENTER LOCATED AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA,
IRVINE, AND WE INTEND TO PUBLISH
ALL THESE STUDIES, TOWARDS THE
END OF THE YEAR. THE STUDIES
HAVE BEEN SHARED WITH A PLANNING
AND ADVISORY GROUP, A
PARTICIPATION GROUP INCLUDING
COMMUNITY BASED ORGANIZATIONS,
TO MAKE SURE WE GET EARLY
FEEDBACK ON THE WORK THAT WE'RE
DOING, THIS THIS WORK IS BEING
DONE IN CONJUNCTION WITH OUR
EFFORTS TO SUPPORT ARCHES. WE
ARE A MEMBER OF ARCHES, LIKE
OTHERS ON THE PANEL. AND WE ARE
PROUD TO SUPPORT THE STATE'S
EFFORTS TO CAPTURE, FEDERAL
FUNDS TO SUPPORT THE ENERGY
TRANSITION, BLENDING OF HYDROGEN
IS A IS ANOTHER PROJECT THAT
WE'RE WORKING ON AS, AGAIN,
DIRECTED BY THE CPUC IN
CONJUNCTION WITH, WITH OTHER THE
OTHER GAS UTILITIES IN THE STATE
, BLENDING OF HYDROGEN CAN BE A
KEY ENABLER TO UNLOCK DEMAND IN
THE MARKET. IMPORTANT AS
RECENTLY AS MONDAY, CARB HAS
NOTED THAT HYDROGEN BLENDING IS
PART OF THEIR OVERALL STRATEGY
AND PLAN TO UNLOCK POTENTIAL
TOOLS TO DECARBONIZE THE STATE'S
ENERGY SYSTEM, IMPORTANTLY, IF A
MERE 20% OF THE NATURAL GAS
SYSTEM WERE REPLACED BY
HYDROGEN, IT WOULD BE THE
EQUIVALENT OF REMOVING 1.5
MILLION GASOLINE POWERED CARS
FROM OUR ROADS. WE ARE BLENDING.
DEMONSTRATION PROJECTS WILL BE
PERFORMED AGAIN WITH UCI, ALSO
IN A CITY CALLED ORANGE COVE,
WHICH IS IN THE SAN JOAQUIN
VALLEY AND WE INTEND TO
DEMONSTRATE HYDROGEN BLENDING IN
CALIFORNIA SYSTEM. IT'S
IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT BLENDING
OF HYDROGEN TAKES PLACE AROUND
THE WORLD. IN FACT, AS NEAR AS
HAWAII. HAWAII GASES, GAS SYSTEM
HAS BETWEEN 12 AND 15% HYDROGEN
AND HAS SINCE 1974. IN FACT, IF
YOU HAVE A BURGER COOKED IN
WAIKIKI, IT HAS BEEN COOKED ON
HYDROGEN SINCE THE 70S. I WANT
TO NOTE ALSO THAT HYDROGEN
BLENDING AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO
BLEND TO HELP DECARBONIZE THE
BROADER ENERGY SYSTEM IS ALSO
TAKING PLACE IN THE UK WITH
SIGNIFICANT TRIALS THERE. AND
I'LL JUST QUOTE THE GOVERNOR
THAT THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY IS THE
FUTURE AND NECESSARY FOR THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA. I WANT TO
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. I LOOK
FORWARD TO YOUR QUESTIONS. I
WANT TO THANK YOU. I UNDERSTAND
YOU HAD, QUITE A TRAVEL
SCHEDULE, BEING HERE FOR THE
CONFERENCE ON MONDAY AND THEN
BACK AND FORTH. SO APPRECIATE
YOU. MAKING THE EXTRA, EXTRA
EFFORTS IN TERMS OF THAT. THANK
YOU, I'M GOING TO JUST ASK ONE
QUICK QUESTION, JUST TO CLARIFY
SOMETHING I HEARD, AND I WANT TO
MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND BEFORE WE
GO ON. AND WHEN YOU SAID OPEN
ACCESS, COULD YOU CLARIFY WHAT
YOU MEAN BY OPEN ACCESS? YES,
CERTAINLY. I'D BE HAPPY TO DO
THAT. SO THE OPEN ACCESS
PIPELINE ESSENTIALLY IS A
NONDISCRIMINATORY PIPELINE THAT
WOULD ALLOW ANY PRODUCER OR IN
FACT, ANY, QUALIFIED OFF TAKER
TO TAKE SERVICE OF THAT PIPELINE
, AS AS NOTED BY THE FIRST
WITNESS, THERE ARE HYDROGEN
PIPELINES TODAY IN THE UNITED
STATES. MOST OF THOSE ARE, ARE,
ARE ARE MERCHANT, PIPELINES THAT
WOULD, WOULD OTHERWISE DELIVER
TO A SINGLE CUSTOMER FOR, A
NONDISCRIMINATORY, OPEN ACCESS
PIPELINE WOULD ALLOW, ALL, ALL
PRODUCERS TO HAVE ACCESS TO
THAT. IT IS IT IS SIMILAR TO THE
NATURAL GAS NETWORK. I WANTED TO
MAKE SURE WE CLARIFY, ALL OF OUR
TERMS AND I'LL ASK SOME
QUESTIONS WHERE I KNOW THE
ANSWER. BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE
WE GET THE QUESTION OUT THERE
FOR PEOPLE IN TERMS OF DOING
THAT, AND SO WE NOW MOVE ON TO
MR. KHAN. THANK YOU, CHAIR
BENNETT. AND THE SPECIAL
COMMITTEE MEMBERS AND STAFF FOR
INVITING ME TO SPEAK TODAY. MY
ORGANIZATION, THE PIPELINE
SAFETY TRUST, WAS FORMED AFTER
THE OLYMPIC PIPELINE TRAGEDY
STOLE THE LIVES OF THREE BOYS IN
BELLINGHAM, WASHINGTON, IN 1999.
THE US JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS SO
AGHAST AT THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE
PIPELINE COMPANY AND THE LACK OF
OVERSIGHT FROM THE GOVERNMENT
THAT HAD ASKED THE COURTS TO SET
ASIDE MONEY FROM THE SETTLEMENT
TO CREATE THE PIPELINE SAFETY
TRUST AS AN INDEPENDENT NATIONAL
WATCHDOG, OUR VISION IS FOR NO
OTHER COMMUNITY TO ENDURE THE
SENSELESS GRIEF THAT BELLINGHAM
HAD TO EXPERIENCE FROM A
PIPELINE FAILURE. UNFORTUNATELY,
WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF PROGRESS
TO MAKE. IN FACT, 2023 WAS THE
DEADLIEST YEAR FOR PIPELINE
SAFETY IN AMERICA AND AT LEAST A
DECADE GIVEN THAT WE AREN'T
MAKING REAL PROGRESS ON PIPELINE
SAFETY FOR NATURAL GAS PIPELINES
, EXPANDING A RELATIVELY NASCENT
PIPELINE PRODUCTS SUCH AS
HYDROGEN GIVES US PAUSE. WE URGE
GREAT CARE AND DISCERNMENT WHEN
CREATING POLICY THAT WILL AFFECT
PIPELINE TRANSPORTATION. IN
2022, WE COMMISSIONED A REPORT
ON PIPELINE HYDROGEN PIPELINE
SAFETY. INCLUDED IN THE REPORT
WAS A DESCRIPTION OF THE CURRENT
STATE OF HYDROGEN PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE AND REGULATIONS,
INFORMATION ABOUT THE PHYSICAL
PROPERTIES OF HYDROGEN, AND A
LIST OF POLICY AND RESEARCH
RECOMMENDATIONS. THE PIPELINE
AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SAFETY
ADMINISTRATION, OR PHMSA, HAS
MINIMUM SAFETY REGULATIONS ON
HYDROGEN PIPELINES, BUT THEY ARE
NOT SUFFICIENT TO PROTECT PEOPLE
IN THE ENVIRONMENT. THERE ARE
MORE ROBUST STANDARDS, SUCH AS
ASME'S INDUSTRY PRODUCED B31 12,
BUT THIS STANDARD IS VOLUNTARY
WHEN IT COMES TO HYDROGEN
BLENDING. THE REGULATOR. THE
REGULATIONS ARE ENTIRELY
INADEQUATE. FOR EXAMPLE,
OPERATORS ONLY NEED TO REPORT
THE PREDOMINANT PRODUCT IN A
PIPELINE, MEANING UNTIL HYDROGEN
REACHES 50, THE REGULATOR WOULD
BE UNAWARE OF ANY HYDROGEN
BLENDING. PHMSA HAS RECENTLY
PROPOSED. OPERATORS BEGIN
REPORTING THIS INFORMATION, BUT
THAT PROCESS IS STILL IN ITS
EARLY STAGES. THERE ARE NO
REGULATIONS ADDRESSING THE
UNIQUE RISKS OF HYDROGEN BLENDED
PIPELINES. THERE ARE LITTLE, IF
ANY, SPECIFIC REGULATIONS ABOUT
CONVERSION OF SERVICE FROM
METHANE TO HYDROGEN OR A
HYDROGEN METHANE BLEND, A
CRITICAL SAFETY ISSUE THAT
SHOULD BE STRICTLY REGULATED
AMONG THE UNIQUE PHYSICAL
PROPERTIES OF HYDROGEN WHEN
COMPARED TO METHANE ARE THE MUCH
LARGER EXPLOSIVE RANGE ABOUT
SEVEN TIMES LARGER, MORE
COMPLETE COMBUSTION AND HOTTER
FIRES FROM EXPLOSIONS. INVISIBLE
FLAMES FROM COMBUSTION AND
DAYLIGHT, AND A MUCH SMALLER
MOLECULE THAN METHANE, WHILE
MORE RESEARCH IS NEEDED, SOME
STUDIES SHOW HYDROGEN LEAKS AT
FASTER RATES THAN METHANE. THIS
IS IMPORTANT FROM A SAFETY
PERSPECTIVE, AS LEAKED GAS CAN
MIGRATE UNDERGROUND AND
ACCUMULATE IN CONFINED SPACES
BEFORE EXPLODING. BUT IT'S ALSO
IMPORTANT FROM A CLIMATE
PERSPECTIVE, SINCE HYDROGEN IS A
POTENT INDIRECT GREENHOUSE GAS,
HYDROGEN CAN CAUSE A HOST OF
INTEGRITY ISSUES IN PIPELINES
SUCH AS EMBRITTLEMENT AND
CRACKING. MORE RESEARCH IS
NEEDED TO FULLY DETERMINE WHICH
MATERIALS ARE AND ARE NOT
APPROPRIATE FOR HYDROGEN
SERVICE, AS WELL AS WHAT
CONDITIONS LEAD TO EMBRITTLEMENT
AND CRACKING. LEAK DETECTION
TECHNOLOGY FOR HYDROGEN, CRUCIAL
TO MAINTAINING SAFE PIPELINES
AND PROTECTING COMMUNITIES, IS
FAR BEHIND THE TECHNOLOGY FOR
METHANE AND WON'T BE ABLE TO
MEET THE FIVE PARTS PER MILLION
STANDARD PROPOSED BY PHMSA IN
ITS RECENT LEAK DETECTION AND
REPAIR NOTICE OF PROPOSED
RULEMAKING. THE CREATOR OF THE
FORMULA FOR THE POTENTIAL IMPACT
RADIUS CALCULATION TO DETERMINE
THE BLAST BLAST ZONE AROUND A
PIPELINE, HAS SAID. THE FORMULA
FOR HYDROGEN PIPELINES IS NOT
ACCURATE AND NEEDS TO BE
REWORKED THROUGH THE ANALYSIS.
IN OUR PAPER, WE REACHED SEVERAL
CONCLUSIONS, AMONG THEM A
BLENDING OF HYDROGEN INTO GAS
DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS SHOULD NOT
BE PERMITTED. THESE SYSTEMS
PRESENT A RISK OF HYDROGEN
ENTERING PEOPLE'S HOMES AND
BUSINESSES THROUGH INTERNAL
PIPING, NOT DESIGNED FOR
HYDROGEN BLENDS, AND OUTSIDE THE
JURISDICTION OF PIPELINE SAFETY
AGENCIES. LIKEWISE, BLENDING OF
HYDROGEN INTO GAS TRANSMISSION
PIPELINES THAT SERVE GAS
DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS SHOULD NOT
BE PERMITTED. REPURPOSING
EXISTING GAS TRANSMISSION
PIPELINES THAT SERVICE ONLY
INDUSTRIAL USERS MAY BE
APPROPRIATE. ONCE PARTICULAR
KNOWLEDGE GAPS CAN BE RESOLVED,
AND OPERATORS CAN DEMONSTRATE
THAT EACH COMPONENT IN THE
SYSTEM IS APPROPRIATE FOR
HYDROGEN SERVICE AND NEW,
SMALLER DIAMETER HYDROGEN
TRANSMISSION PIPELINES MAY BE
SUITABLE IF KNOWLEDGE GAPS CAN
BE RESOLVED, PIPELINE INTEGRITY
CAN BE DEMONSTRATED AND
PIPELINES CAN BE SITED TO ENSURE
THAT FAILURES WILL NOT RESULT IN
DEATHS OR INJURIES. HYDROGEN HAS
ABOUT ONE THIRD THE ENERGY
DENSITY OF METHANE BY VOLUME.
THEREFORE, A 10% BLEND OF
HYDROGEN WILL ONLY SEE AN
APPROXIMATE 3% REDUCTION IN
GREENHOUSE GASES. IF THE
HYDROGEN IS LEAKING AT A FASTER
RATE THAN METHANE, THAT WILL
REDUCE THE GREENHOUSE GAS
SAVINGS EVEN MORE. GIVEN THE
INTEGRITY ISSUES, THE
INAPPROPRIATENESS OF MANY HOMES
AND BUSINESSES, INTERNAL PIPES
AND APPLIANCES TO HANDLE
HYDROGEN, NOT TO MENTION THE
PIPELINES AND COMPONENTS
THEMSELVES. THE GREATER RANGE OF
FLAMMABILITY, THE KNOWLEDGE AND
REGULATORY GAPS PLEASE TAKE
SERIOUSLY THE RISKS YOU'RE
ASKING COMMUNITIES TO BEAR,
ESPECIALLY OUR MOST VULNERABLE
COMMUNITIES, WHO ALL TOO OFTEN
BEAR THE BRUNT OF THE SAFETY
RISKS FROM OUR ENERGY
INFRASTRUCTURE. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH. AND YOU REMIND ME WHY
WE'RE HAVING THE SELECT
COMMITTEE, AND I WANT TO
CONTRAST THIS WITH THE HYDROGEN
CONFERENCE THAT WE WERE JUST AT,
TOPICS AS CONTROVERSIAL AS THE
DISTINCT AS THE DIFFERENCE IN
OPINION THAT YOU HAVE WITH
OTHERS WHO SUPPORT BLENDING. IS
EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED TO GET OUT
IN THE OPEN AND HAVE FRANK,
PUBLIC CONVERSATIONS ABOUT. SO
REALLY APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE
TIME TO BE HERE. AND WE WILL
HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.
AND, MR. SANTABARBARA, THANK
YOU. THANK YOU, CHAIR BENNETT.
AND THANK YOU, STAFF, MY NAME IS
RINALDO BRUTOCO, AND I'M THE
FOUNDER AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE
OFFICER OF A COMPANY CALLED H2
CLIPPER INC, WHEN I DID MY LAST
MAJOR BOOK ON RENEWABLE ENERGY,
YOU NEED TO BRING THE MICROPHONE
CLOSER TO YOU. PLEASE. WHEN I
DID MY LAST, MAJOR BOOK ON
RENEWABLE ENERGY, WHICH WAS IN
2007, I CONCLUDED IN THE LAST
CHAPTER THAT HYDROGEN WAS THE
SOLUTION TO REPLACE FOSSIL FUEL
IN A MAJOR WAY, AND WE DON'T SEE
IT AS AN EITHER ELECTRONS OR
MOLECULE APPROACH. WE THINK BOTH
ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED, AND
I'VE EVEN I'VE STARTED A SERIES
OF ARTICLES WHICH IS LABELED THE
TEN ARTICLES ARE LABELED THE
HYDROGEN BASED FALSE DICHOTOMY.
IT'S NOT ELECTRONS OR MOLECULES.
IT'S BOTH IN WHICH WE I GO
THROUGH EACH INDIVIDUAL
APPLICATION OF HYDROGEN TO SEE
WHERE IT FITS AS EITHER AN
ELECTRON INTO THE GRID OR AS A
MOLECULE. WE CURRENTLY CERTAINLY
DO AGREE THAT IT HARD TO ABATE
SECTORS. CEMENT, STEEL CLEARLY
ARE GOING TO GO HYDROGEN.
CLEARLY LOCOMOTIVES ARE GOING TO
GO HYDROGEN. IT'S ALREADY
HAPPENING GLOBALLY. I'M WORKING
ON A REPORT RIGHT NOW FOR THE
CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH
THEY'RE DEVELOPING A PLAN TO
COMMERCIALIZE HYDROGEN TRAINS
ALL OVER, ALL OVER CANADA, WE'LL
BE TAKING DELIVERY OF OUR FIRST
HYDROGEN LOCOMOTIVE SOON HERE.
THE ONE IN SWITZERLAND JUST SET
A RECORD. IT WENT FOR, 46 TO
OVER 2000KM. OVER 2000 MILES,
ACTUALLY, WITHOUT REFUELING ON
GASEOUS HYDROGEN. I SHARE THAT
WITH YOU, BECAUSE OUR COMPANY
HAS DEVELOPED A TREMENDOUS
NUMBER OF PATENTS. 16 SO FAR,
MORE IN THE WORKS ON BOTH LIQUID
HYDROGEN AND GASEOUS HYDROGEN.
AND WHAT WE'VE TARGETED ON IS
THE MOVEMENT OF THOSE MOLECULES.
SO WE DON'T WANT TO EVER COMPETE
WITH SOMEONE WHO'S CREATING
GREEN HYDROGEN. WE WANT TO
ENABLE THEM. WE DON'T WANT TO
COMPETE WITH SOMEBODY MAKING
PIPELINES. WE WANT TO ASSIST
THEM TO BE SAFER, WE JUST
COMPLETED A TEST, WHICH I'VE
BROUGHT A COPY WITH ME, CHAIR
BENNETT, I CAN LEAVE WITH YOU,
WITH ONE OF THE LARGEST PUBLIC
COMPANIES IN THE HYDROGEN SPACE,
WE WERE PAID TO DO A TEST AND A
SUBSTANTIAL UNDERGROUND TEST
THAT LASTED NINE MONTHS, JUST
THE REPORT WAS JUST RELEASED A
MONTH AGO, AND WE'RE JUST NOW
GETTING COPIES OUT. EDF GOT
THERE IS JUST LIKE A WEEK AGO. I
GAVE NEIL HIS COPY THIS MORNING,
AND WHAT IT SAYS IS TWO THINGS.
NUMBER ONE, IT SAYS THAT IT'LL
NEVER BE ECONOMICALLY DESIRABLE
TO CAPTURE ALL THE HYDROGEN THAT
WILL PERMEATE OR LEAK FROM EVERY
CERTIFIED CARRIER PIPE IN THE
WORLD. NOW, WE MAINTAIN A
DATABASE AT H2 CLIPPER BECAUSE
WE DON'T MANUFACTURE PIPE AND WE
DON'T INSTALL PIPE. AND WE THINK
THE UNIONS SHOULD, BY THE WAY.
AND SO WE WORK WITH ENGINEERING
FIRMS THAT HAVE INSTALLATION
CAPABILITY, AND WE HELP THEM
DESIGN SYSTEMS. SO WE DEFINITELY
PROMOTE UNION. ACTIVITY AND WE
PROMOTE DEVELOPING THE SAFEST
POSSIBLE TECHNOLOGY FOR PIPES.
SO WE MAINTAIN THIS DATABASE ON
EUROPEAN PIPES, AMERICAN PIPES,
ETC. GREEK PIPES. SEVERAL
CONCLUSIONS COME TO THE FORE.
ONE OF THEM IS ALL PIPES LEAK,
WHICH I THINK EVERYBODY HERE
KNOWS. THE PROBLEM IS WE THOUGHT
THAT WAS OKAY WITH METHANE AND
WE DIDN'T ADDRESS IT ON THE
FRONT END. AND YOU SHOULD
ADDRESS IT HERE ON THE FRONT END
IN CALIFORNIA. AND HERE'S WHY IT
ISN'T ECONOMICALLY VIABLE TO
CAPTURE THE LAST MOLECULE OF
HYDROGEN. BUT IT'S A TERRIBLE
SAFETY HAZARD IF YOU DON'T THE
STANDARD IT'S A TERRIBLE THING
TO SAFETY HAZARD. WHAT THE TEST
WE JUST CONCLUDED FOR A LARGE
PUBLIC COMPANY IN THE HYDROGEN
SPACE SAYS THAT WITHIN ONE WEEK,
A PIPE CERTIFIED BY THE SAVANNAH
NATIONAL LABS, A SPECIFIC PIPE,
THEY EXACT ONE THEY CERTIFIED
WAS PUT IN THE TEST AND IT GOT
LEAKAGE OF 40,000 PARTS PER
MILLION WITHIN ONE WEEK FLAT.
NOW UNDERSTAND 40,000 PARTS PER
MILLION. THAT'S COMBUSTION. SO
THERE'S NO CONCEIVABLE WAY THAT
ANYONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PUT
A HYDROGEN PIPE IN THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA, WHICH DOES NOT HAVE
THE FOLLOWING FEATURES. NUMBER
ONE, FULL CONTAINMENT HAS TO BE
A SAFETY PIPE NUMBER TWO, IT HAS
TO HAVE A SWEEP GAS TECHNOLOGY
SO THAT EVERY SINGLE MOLECULE
CAN BE GATHERED UP. AND NOT A
SINGLE ONE GETS TO THE
ATMOSPHERE. NUMBER THREE, IT HAS
TO HAVE CONTINUOUS MONITORING,
NOT OCCASIONAL, NOT NOT WELL
LOOK ONCE A MONTH, INSTANTLY,
INSTANTLY, INSTANTLY BY INSTANT.
IT HAS TO HAVE MONITORING AND IT
HAS TO HAVE REMOTE SHUT OFF.
THOSE ARE THE TECHNOLOGIES WE
PATENTED GLOBALLY. THAT PATENT I
THINK, CAME IN JUST LAST
SEPTEMBER, AND WE ARE NOW IN THE
PROCESS OF HELPING PEOPLE
UNDERSTAND THAT STANDARD HAS TO
BE WRITTEN INTO LAW. WE'RE
FAIRLY COMFORTABLE IT'S GOING TO
GET INTO LAW, IT'S ALREADY BEING
PROPOSED IN SEVERAL EUROPEAN
COUNTRIES. I BELIEVE IT'LL GET
INTO LAW IN CALIFORNIA FOR THE
SIMPLE REASON. THERE'S NO REASON
NOT TO DO IT. AND I WANT TO
POINT OUT TO PEOPLE IN
CALIFORNIA, WE HAD THE WE
DISCOVERED THAT WE WERE TO LEASE
ON METHANE TO LOOSE ON METHANE
IN THE FRONT END. AND WE ALSO
REALIZED WE WERE TOO LOOSE ON
UNDERGROUND TANKS FOR GASOLINE
STATIONS. AND SO WE PASSED A
RULE WHICH SAID, IF YOU GOT
UNDERGROUND TANK GOT TO BE
DOUBLE WALLED. CONTAINMENT HAS
TO BE CETERA. ET CETERA. ET
CETERA. THE LAW PASSED, BUT THEY
EXEMPTED NATURAL GAS. WHY?
BECAUSE THE INDUSTRY WAS SO
ENTRENCHED THAT THEY FELT, I
GUESS, FOR POLITICAL REASONS, WE
COULDN'T GO BACK AND CHANGE IT
LATER. AND I KNOW FROM A COUPLE
OF CONVERSATIONS WITH FRED KRUPP
AT EDF, HE THINKS THAT SHOULDN'T
BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN IN
CALIFORNIA OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN
THE UNITED STATES. AND I'D BE
HAPPY TO ADDRESS ANY AND ALL OF
THESE ISSUES IN THE QUESTION
PERIOD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND
WE HAVE TWO, TWO SPEAKERS LEFT,
AND MR. RAHU, I HOPE I
PRONOUNCED THAT RIGHT. RAJU.
RAJU. THANK YOU. HI AGAIN, THANK
YOU, CHAIRMAN, FOR THE
INVITATION. I'M ARUN RAJU. I'M
WITH UC RIVERSIDE, MY RESEARCH
IS PRIMARILY FOCUSED ON
RENEWABLE FUELS, PARTICULARLY
HYDROGEN. I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T
HEAR YOU. WHAT KIND OF FUEL,
RENEWABLE FUELS. OKAY. GOT IT,
PARTICULARLY HYDROGEN, BOTH FROM
THE PERSPECTIVE OF HYDROGEN.
IMPACT ON MATERIALS, AND ALSO ON
THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT ALSO
PLANNING FOR PRODUCTION AND USE
OF HYDROGEN, PLANNING FOR,
HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE,
ESPECIALLY FOR THE
TRANSPORTATION SECTOR. I WAS
ALSO ON THE STEERING COMMITTEE
FOR CALIFORNIA COUNCIL ON
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY'S, REPORT
LAST YEAR, OUTLINING
CALIFORNIA'S, SIGNIFICANT ENERGY
CHALLENGES, WHICH HAS SINCE THEN
BEEN UPDATED. AND AS YOU
MENTIONED EARLIER, I WAS THE
PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR FOR THE
UC RIVERSIDE STUDY SPONSORED BY
THE PUC TO EVALUATE THE IMPACT
OF HYDROGEN BLENDING ON OUR
NATURAL GAS INFRASTRUCTURE. SO
I'M GOING TO FOCUS, A LOT OF MY
COMMENTS ON THAT ASPECT, BUT I
DO WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK
BEFORE I GET INTO THAT AND, YOU
KNOW, KIND OF PROVIDE A BIG
PICTURE VIEW OF THE
JUSTIFICATION TO PURSUE THE
HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND USE,
THROUGH ALL POSSIBLE AVENUES, WE
ARE GOING TO BE, GOING THROUGH A
FUNDAMENTAL TRANSITION OF OUR
ENERGY SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT 2 TO
3 DECADES FROM THE RESOURCES,
FROM INFRASTRUCTURE AND FROM END
USE, EQUIPMENT PERSPECTIVE,
WE'RE GOING TO BE DECARBONIZED
FULLY BY 2045. AND A LOT OF THAT
WILL BE DONE THROUGH
ELECTRIFICATION AND
ELECTRIFICATION IS THE PATH TO
GO FOR MANY APPLICATIONS. AND WE
SEE THAT ALREADY IN LIGHT DUTY
TRANSPORTATION AND SOME OF THE
OTHER SECTORS, AND THE BUILDING
SECTOR IS ALSO, GETTING
ELECTRIFIED, BUT RIGHT NOW, IF
WE LOOK AT, OUR ENERGY
INFRASTRUCTURE, THERE'S THREE
MAJOR NETWORKS. ONE IS THE
ELECTRIC GRID, THE OTHER IS A
NATURAL GAS INFRASTRUCTURE. AND
THE THIRD IS THE OIL
INFRASTRUCTURE. THE WHAT,
PETROLEUM OIL. SO THESE OFFER,
QUITE A BIT OF, DYNAMISM,
RELIABILITY, RESILIENCY AND
REDUNDANCY FOR THE ECONOMY. AND
THERE ARE SOME END USERS THAT
ARE GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT
TO ELECTRIFY. THESE INCLUDE SOME
INDUSTRIAL USES WHERE HEAT IS
NEEDED OR CHEMICAL PRODUCTION OR
HEAVY DUTY TRANSPORTATION,
MARINE FUELS. SO FOR THOSE AND
TO KEEP THE RELIABILITY AND
RESILIENCY OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE
, WE DO NEED TO HAVE A, FUEL AS
AN ENERGY CARRIER AND
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THAT FUEL,
AND RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE
MULTIPLE OPTIONS AVAILABLE,
INCLUDING BIOFUELS FOR SOME
PURPOSES. BUT HYDROGEN PROBABLY
OFFERS A BEST OPPORTUNITY TO
ADDRESS ALL OF THOSE NEEDS. AND
TO BE THAT ENERGY CARRIER AND
ALSO AS A, CHEMICAL PRODUCTION
FEEDSTOCK, BUT ALSO MORE
IMPORTANTLY, FOR LONG DURATION
ENERGY STORAGE THAT CANNOT BE
ACCOMPLISHED BY, BATTERIES. SO
FOR ALL OF THESE REASONS, IT'S
IMPORTANT THAT WE PURSUE
HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND USE AND
INTEGRATION OF HYDROGEN INTO OUR
ENERGY ECONOMY THROUGH ALL THE
POSSIBLE AVENUES. AND TO DO THAT
OF COURSE, WE NEED A HYDROGEN
INFRASTRUCTURE RIGHT NOW, THE
INFRASTRUCTURE WE HAVE IS
LIMITED PRIMARILY TO INDUSTRIAL
PURPOSES. AND ALL THE HYDROGEN
IS PRODUCED FROM FOSSIL NATURAL
GAS. BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO
DO IS TO PRODUCE RENEWABLE
HYDROGEN, GREEN HYDROGEN AND BE
ABLE TO USE IT FOR ALL THESE
DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS. TO DO
THAT, WE CAN EITHER BUILD,
CUSTOM HYDROGEN PIPELINES OR WE
CAN TRY TO BLEND HYDROGEN WITHIN
THE EXISTING PIPELINES, BOTH
APPROACHES HAVE ADVANTAGES AND
DISADVANTAGES AND, YOU KNOW,
CHALLENGES ASSOCIATED WITH THEM,
BUILDING A HYDROGEN BRAND NEW
PIPELINE. OF COURSE, WE CAN
AVOID SOME OF THE MATERIAL
RELATED CONCERNS OR ISSUES THAT
THAT HYDROGEN HAS, AND I'LL GET
INTO THEM IN A LITTLE BIT, AND
WE CAN POTENTIALLY ELIMINATE OR
MITIGATE A LOT OF THE LEAKAGE,
WHICH IS A MAJOR CONCERN AS WELL
, BUT IT ALSO GOING TO BE MUCH
MORE, EXPENSIVE, BUT PERHAPS A
LITTLE BIT SLOWER, BUT I THINK
MORE IMPORTANTLY, COSTS, LAND
USE CONFLICT S, CONSERVATION
RELATED CONCERNS AND, ISSUES.
SO, THOSE ARE THE PROS AND CONS
OF BUILDING CUSTOM PIPELINES,
RIGHT NOW WE ARE MOSTLY
TRANSPORTING HYDROGEN, BESIDES
THE EXISTING AIR PRODUCTS
PIPELINE THROUGH BY TRUCKS,
WHICH WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID, SO
THE SECOND APPROACH, BLENDING
HYDROGEN INTO THE EXISTING
NATURAL GAS INFRASTRUCTURE, IT
OFFERS SOME ADVANTAGES. ONE IS
IT IS LIKELY TO BE MUCH MORE
COST EFFECTIVE THAN BUILDING A
HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE FROM
SCRATCH, A SECOND IS IT OFFERS,
POTENTIAL ORPHALI AN EXPEDITED
PATHWAY TO INTEGRATE HYDROGEN
INTO OUR ENERGY MIX, IN THE NEAR
FUTURE, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER
OF CONCERNS AND I THINK SOME OF
THE PANELISTS HAVE BROUGHT UP
THOSE CONCERNS. SO THE UC
RIVERSIDE STUDY LOOKED AT,
DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THESE,
CONCERNS. ONE IS LEAKAGE, THE
SECOND IS THE EFFECT ON
MATERIALS, BOTH METALS AND
NONMETALS AND THE TRANSPORTATION
AND DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. NATURAL
GAS INFRASTRUCTURE HAS A VERY
BROAD RANGE OF METALS AND
NONMETALS AND ON TOP OF THAT, WE
ALSO HAVE A PRETTY DIVERSE RANGE
OF EQUIPMENT AND INSTRUMENTS.
AND OTHER POLICIES AND
PROCEDURES TO MAINTAIN AND
OPERATE THEM, WE ALSO LOOKED AT
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF HYDROGEN CAN
BE BLENDED INTO THE NATURAL GAS
INFRASTRUCTURE, SO I'LL GO
THROUGH THOSE BRIEFLY ONE BY
ONE, EACH OF THOSE TOPICS,
WE'RE, WE'RE WE'RE PAST, HOW CAN
YOU DO THAT FAIRLY QUICKLY?
OKAY. YES. SO I'LL JUST
HIGHLIGHT EACH ITEM. SO WITH
RESPECT TO LEAKAGE, HYDROGEN
BEING A SMALL MOLECULE, IT DOES
LEAK MUCH FASTER THAN METHANE.
AND THE HIGHER THE HYDROGEN IN A
MIXTURE IT WILL LEAK FASTER. BUT
HYDROGEN DOES NOT LEAK
PREFERENTIALLY. IT DOES NOT LEAK
WHAT PREFERENTIALLY MEANING
HYDROGEN WILL NOT LEAK JUST BY
ITSELF WITHOUT THE METHANE FROM
A PIPELINE AND FROM THE MATERIAL
SIDE, HYDROGEN DOES HAVE A
NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE STRENGTH
AND PERFORMANCE OF MANY OF THE
MATERIALS USED IN THE
INFRASTRUCTURE TODAY, AND WE
NEED TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE
IMPACTS IN TERMS OF THE
PERCENTAGES, I THINK UP TO 5%
HYDROGEN CAN BE BLENDED RIGHT
NOW WITHOUT, SERIOUS UPGRADES OR
MODIFICATIONS TO THE SYSTEM, AND
5 TO 20% SEEMS FEASIBLE,
ANYTHING HIGHER THAN THAT? WE
NEED A LOT MORE RESEARCH. SO OUR
RECOMMENDATION IS TO DO THIS IN
PILOT PROJECTS, IN ISOLATED
SEGMENTS OR SAFE, LOCATIONS, AND
THEN PROCEED TO A STATEWIDE
BLENDING, STANDARD. THANK YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. APPRECIATE
IT, THERE ARE SO MANY TOPICS
HERE WE COULD SPEND ALL DAY ON
EACH ONE OF THEM, WE'RE GOING
TO, NOW MOVE OVER TO, MISS
MURPHY, AND 3 TO 5 MINUTES, MISS
MURPHY, FOR THE ISSUES YOU WANT
TO HIGHLIGHT FOR THE LEGISLATURE
TO CONSIDER AS WE CONSIDER
LEGISLATION REGARDING HYDROGEN.
THANK YOU. HYDROGEN PIPELINES.
I'M SORRY. ABSOLUTELY. THANK
YOU, SO MY NAME IS ERIN MURPHY,
AND I'M A SENIOR ATTORNEY AT
ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND.
HYDROGEN AND METHANE ARE
DISTINCT MOLECULES WITH UNIQUE
PROPERTIES AND BEHAVIORS. SO
WHEN WE'RE CONSIDERING PIPELINES
AND OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE TO
TRANSPORT AND STORE HYDROGEN, WE
CANNOT ASSUME THAT NATURAL GAS
INFRASTRUCTURE AND EXISTING
OVERSIGHT FRAMEWORKS ARE
IMMEDIATELY TRANSFERABLE TO
HYDROGEN. CAUTION IS NEEDED TO
ENSURE THAT HYDROGEN IS DEPLOYED
AND TRANSPORTED BOTH
STRATEGICALLY AND SAFELY. I'M
GOING TO WALK THROUGH THREE
POINTS QUICKLY DURING MY
INTRODUCTORY REMARKS. FIRST,
THAT LEAKAGE FROM HYDROGEN
PIPELINES MUST BE MANAGED
CAREFULLY. SECOND, THAT HYDROGEN
PIPELINE OVERSIGHT IS STILL
DEVELOPING AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.
AND THIRD, THAT HYDROGEN METHANE
BLENDING RAISES NUMEROUS
CONCERNS. FIRST, TO SPEAK TO
LEAKAGE, HYDROGEN ACTS AS AN
INDIRECT GREENHOUSE GAS AND ITS
EMISSIONS INTO EARTH'S
ATMOSPHERE CONTRIBUTE TO
NEAR-TERM WARMING OF OUR
CLIMATE. HYDROGEN TRIGGERS
CHEMICAL REACTIONS IN THE
ATMOSPHERE THAT INCREASE THE
AMOUNTS OF THE POTENT GREENHOUSE
GASES METHANE, STRATOSPHERIC
WATER VAPOR, AND TROPOSPHERIC
OZONE OVER A 20 YEAR TIME FRAME.
HYDROGEN HAS 30 TIMES THE
WARMING POWER OF CARBON DIOXIDE,
SO IF NOT DESIGNED PROPERLY,
HYDROGEN PRODUCTION.
TRANSPORTATION LIKE PIPELINES AS
WELL AS STORAGE AND END USE
INFRASTRUCTURE CAN ALL EMIT
HYDROGEN INTO THE ATMOSPHERE AND
THEREFORE WARM THE CLIMATE.
THERE ARE LIMITATIONS RIGHT NOW
IN THE ABILITIES OF HYDROGEN
SENSING TECHNOLOGIES AND
ANALYSIS, AND BECAUSE OF THOSE
LIMITATIONS, WE DON'T HAVE A
GREAT UNDERSTANDING OF THE LEVEL
OF HYDROGEN LEAKAGE THAT IS
OCCURRING FROM PIPELINES AND
OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE. HOWEVER WE
EXPECT HYDROGEN LEAKAGE TO
GENERALLY BE EQUAL TO OR GREATER
THAN METHANE LEAKAGE FROM
PIPELINES BASED IN PART ON
HYDROGEN. SMALL MOLECULAR SIZE
AS WELL AS LEADING ANALYSIS.
JUST LIKE JUST AS CALIFORNIA HAS
BEEN A LEADER IN MITIGATING
METHANE EMISSIONS FROM NATURAL
GAS PIPELINES, IN PART THROUGH
IMPLEMENTATION OF SB 1371,
LEADERSHIP WILL BE NEEDED TO
MINIMIZE HYDROGEN LEAKAGE FROM
PIPELINES. NEXT, I WANT TO SPEAK
BRIEFLY TO THE DEVELOPING
FEDERAL OVERSIGHT OF HYDROGEN
PIPELINES. SO PHMSA THE PIPELINE
AND HAZARDOUS MATERIAL SAFETY
ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS A
SUBAGENCY OF THE US DEPARTMENT
OF TRANSPORT. THÀNH HAS
OVERSIGHT OF PIPELINES TO ENSURE
THEIR SAFE OPERATION AND THAT
SAFETY OVERSIGHT INCLUDES
ENSURING ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION. SO THERE ARE
EXISTING PIPELINE STANDARDS IN
THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS
AT PARTS ONE, 91 AND 192 THAT
APPLY GENERALLY TO PIPELINE
TRANSPORTATION OF ANY GAS,
INCLUDING NATURAL GAS AND
HYDROGEN. HOWEVER, TO DATE,
HYDROGEN PIPELINES HAVE MADE UP
A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF TOTAL
GAS PIPELINES IN THE UNITED
STATES AND THEREFORE THE
STANDARDS HAVE BEEN MORE
TAILORED TO NATURAL GAS. JUST IN
THAT WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION
AND DATA ABOUT NATURAL GAS
PIPELINES. AND TO GIVE YOU THOSE
NUMBERS, WE HAVE ABOUT 3 MILLION
MILES OF NATURAL GAS PIPELINES.
THAT INCLUDES DISTRIBUTION,
TRANSMISSION AND GATHERING
PIPELINES. AND WE HAVE ABOUT
1600 MILES OF DEDICATED HYDROGEN
PIPELINES IN THE US. ALSO, THOSE
1600 MILES OF HYDROGEN PIPELINES
ARE OPERATED BY A RELATIVELY
SMALL GROUP OF COMPANIES. THERE
ARE 31 TOTAL OPERATORS, AND
THREE COMPANIES OPERATE 90% OF
THE HYDROGEN PIPELINE MILES. SO
THERE IS A NEED FOR SAFETY AND
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
STANDARDS FOR BOTH HYDROGEN
METHANE BLENDED PIPELINES, WHERE
THERE'S ALSO A LACK OF CLEAR AND
SPECIFIC STANDARDS AT THIS TIME,
AND FOR DEDICATED HYDROGEN
PIPELINES, EDF AND ALLIES HAVE
CALLED ON PHMSA TO DEVELOP
HYDROGEN SPECIFIC MINIMUM
PIPELINE SAFETY STANDARDS SO
THAT THERE ARE DISTINCT
STANDARDS THAT APPLY TO NATURAL
GAS PIPELINES AND TO HYDROGEN
PIPELINES. IN LIGHT OF THE
DISTINCT PROPERTIES OF THE TWO
MOLECULES AND THE SOME OF THE
DISTINCT NEEDS AROUND THE
OPERATE, THE SAFE OPERATION OF
THOSE PIPELINES, AND SO WE HOPE
TO SEE PHMSA MOVE FORWARD WITH
THE DEVELOPMENT OF STANDARDS,
THAT ARE MORE SPECIFIC TO
HYDROGEN, I THINK, BILL, KAREN,
WITH PIPELINE SAFETY TRUST
MENTIONED THAT PHMSA HAS TAKEN A
VERY PRELIMINARY STEP WITH A NEW
INFORMATION COLLECTION NOTICE
THAT WOULD REQUIRE GAS PIPELINE
OPERATORS TO PUBLICLY REPORT ANY
HYDROGEN BEING INJECTED INTO
EXISTING NATURAL GAS PIPELINES.
WE THINK THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF A
KEY SORT OF STEP FORWARD THAT IS
NEEDED AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL. AS
OVERSIGHT BEGINS TO BE
DEVELOPED. THAT'S MORE
SPECIFICALLY FOCUSED ON HYDROGEN
INFRASTRUCTURE AS IT'S BUILT
OUT. FINALLY, I WANT TO MAKE THE
POINT THAT HYDROGEN METHANE
BLENDING RAISES A NUMBER OF
CONCERNS. I THINK I'M OVER TIME.
SO I'LL SUMMARIZE THIS ONE
QUICKLY AND HAPPY TO GET INTO
IT. DURING THE DISCUSSION, BUT
INJECTING HYDROGEN INTO EXISTING
NATURAL GAS PIPELINES RAISES
ISSUES WITH SAFETY, CLIMATE, AS
WELL AS AIR QUALITY CONCERNS.
BECAUSE COMBUSTION OF A HYDROGEN
METHANE MIXTURE COULD
POTENTIALLY INCREASE NOX
EMISSIONS, WHICH CAN HAVE
HARMFUL HEALTH IMPACTS FOR
NEARBY COMMUNITIES AND PIPELINE
NETWORKS THAT ARE DESIGNED AND
MAINTAINED TO TRANSPORT ONE GAS.
NATURAL GAS WILL REQUIRE CAREFUL
MAINTENANCE AND LIKELY
SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS AND
PLANNING TO PREPARE TO TRANSPORT
A DIFFERENT MIXTURE OF GAS. ONE
OF THOSE CONCERNS IS AROUND
LEAKAGE, WHERE IF YOU START
BLENDING HYDROGEN INTO THE
NATURAL GAS SYSTEM, YOU SEE A
POSSIBILITY OF INCREASED
LEAKAGE. AND THEN FINAL THOUGHT
THERE IS THAT, BECAUSE HYDROGEN
HAS A LOWER ENERGY DENSITY THAN
NATURAL GAS BLENDING, HYDROGEN
INTO THE LOCAL GAS DISTRIBUTION
SYSTEM ACHIEVES MINIMAL
GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS
REDUCTIONS, ABOUT 6% GREENHOUSE
GAS EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS FOR A
20% HYDROGEN BLEND BY VOLUME.
AND SO AS A PRELIMINARY STEP,
WHEN IT'S NOT A FULL PATHWAY TO
DECARBONIZATION FOR THE BUILDING
SECTOR, WHERE WE EXPECT TO SEE
ELECTRIFICATION REALLY BE THE
ULTIMATE PATHWAY TO MOVE OFF OF
FOSSIL FUELS, BLENDING IS A
PRELIMINARY STEP DOESN'T
NECESSARILY MAKE SENSE IN LIGHT
OF THE COSTS AS WELL AS THE
SAFETY AND CLIMATE CONCERNS.
THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO
SPEAK WELL. I WANT TO THANK ALL
SEVEN OF YOU. AND, THIS
HIGHLIGHTS FOR ME JUST LISTENING
TO THE SEVEN OF YOU AND THE
DIVERSE OPINIONS THAT WE HAVE
HERE, HOW IMPORTANT IT IS GOING
TO BE FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO
MAKE SURE ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS
HAVE INPUT. BUT WE NEED
INDUSTRY, LABOR, ENVIRONMENTAL
GROUPS, COMMUNITY GROUPS,
RATEPAYER GROUPS, SAFETY
EXPERTS. WE NEED THE BEST INPUT
FROM ALL OF YOU. IF WE'RE GOING
TO DIGEST JUST THE JUST THE
TOPIC OF PIPELINE. SO HYDROGEN
AS YOU CAN SEE, BUT WITH THE
WHOLE ISSUE, WE'RE MAKING THE
MOST DRAMATIC TRANSFORMATION IN
CALIFORNIA'S HISTORY. I MEAN,
YOU WON'T FIND ANOTHER TIME WHEN
YOU'LL SAY SOMETHING AS DRAMATIC
AS THE COMPLETE CHANGEOVER OF
OUR ENERGY SYSTEM FROM A FOSSIL
FUEL SYSTEM TO A NON-FOSSIL FUEL
SYSTEM THAT IS FRAUGHT WITH SO
MANY COMPLICATIONS, AND WE NEED
THE BEST OF EVERYBODY. SO I
ENCOURAGE US ALL TO COMMIT TO
TRYING TO WORK COLLABORATIVELY
AND NOT OPPOSITIONALLY WITH EACH
OTHER TO RESPECT THAT EVERYBODY
HAS A LEGITIMATE POINT OF VIEW.
WE NEED ALL OF YOU, AND WE NEED
THE INPUT FROM ALL OF YOU AS WE
MOVE FORWARD, AND WITH THAT, I'D
LIKE TO WELCOME, AND, INTRODUCE,
ASSEMBLY MEMBER, COTTIE
PETRIE-NORRIS, WHO IS THE CHAIR
OF THE, UTILITIES AND ENERGY
COMMITTEE AND, SHE IS DIGESTING
SOMETHING RIGHT NOW. BUT I
WANTED TO GIVE YOU A MOMENT.
WERE JUST SO, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE
ARE IN THIS PART OF THE PROGRAM.
AFTER YOU DO YOUR BRIEF
INTRODUCTION, AND ANY
INTRODUCTORY THOUGHTS YOU HAVE,
WE HAVE A SERIES OF THINGS THAT
WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO, ALMOST
LIKE A RAPID FIRE. SO THAT WE
GET EVERYBODY TO GIVE US AN
OPINION ON AND TRY TO NAIL SOME
OF THOSE THINGS DOWN. PLEASE
FEEL FREE TO JUMP IN ANY TIME
THAT YOU WANT. WHAT I WAS GOING
TO SAY TO ALL THE MEMBERS IS
THAT I'M TRYING TO MAKE THIS
LESS OF OUR COMMENTARY AND MORE
OF PULL OUT INFORMATION FOR
THEM, SO QUESTIONS THAT YOU
HAVE, ETC. JUMP IN ANY TIME.
THAT'S GOING TO BE FAIRLY FREE
FORM, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO
MAXIMIZE THE AMOUNT OF
INFORMATION THAT WE CAN GET OUT
IN THE TIME PERIOD THAT WE HAVE.
SO WELCOME AND THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR BEING HERE. WELL, AND THANK
YOU, MR. CHAIR. AND THANK YOU TO
ALL OF OUR PANELISTS FOR JOINING
US TODAY. AS THE AS THE CHAIR
HIGHLIGHTED, WE ARE AT A MOMENT
OF REALLY MONUMENTAL
TRANSFORMATION FOR THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA, AND REALLY FOR THE
COUNTRY AND FOR THE AND FOR THE
GLOBE, WE HAVE SOME INCREDIBLY
Kò, INCREDIBLY AMBITIOUS CLIMATE
GOALS BEFORE US, WITH TIMELINES
THAT ARE APPROACHING REALLY,
REALLY QUICKLY. AND I THINK WE
RECOGNIZE THAT WE'VE GOT AN
ENORMOUS CHALLENGE ON OUR HANDS
TO ACTUALLY DELIVER. I THINK
SOMETIMES AS POLICYMAKERS, WE
CAN SET GOALS. WE KIND OF YOU
KNOW, DO THE PRESS RELEASE AND
THEN, KIND OF THINK WE CAN WAVE
A MAGIC WAND TO MAKE IT SO. AND
IT TURNS OUT THAT WHEN WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO DELIVER
ON OUR CLIMATE GOALS, WE ARE
FRESH OUT OF MAGIC WANDS, AND IN
ORDER FOR US TO ACTUALLY MAKE
THESE GOALS A REALITY, WE, AS
THE CHAIR HIGHLIGHTED, WE NEED
EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE, WORKING
TOGETHER TO SOLVE WHAT ARE
REALLY, REALLY HARD CHALLENGES.
SO NONE OF THIS IS SIMPLE. NONE
OF THIS IS STRAIGHTFORWARD.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE REALLY GRATEFUL
TO HAVE YOU AND YOUR EXPERTISE
HERE. AND, JUST ONCE AGAIN,
APPRECIATE YOU, MR. CHAIR, FOR
CONVENING US AND FOR CONTINUING
TO DIG DEEP AND DO THE WORK THAT
WE NEED TO REALLY SOLVE THESE
PROBLEMS. SO LOOKING FORWARD TO
THE CONVERSATION. THANK YOU.
GREAT. THANK, THANK YOU SO MUCH
AGAIN FOR BEING HERE. AND LIKE I
SAID TO EVERYBODY, WE HAVE WE
JUST GOT TO THANK FOR MR. HART.
HE'S IN TWO COMMITTEES STUCK. HE
HOPES TO GET HERE BEFORE THIS
ENDS. WE HAVE COMMITTEE MEMBERS
THAT HOPEFULLY WILL BE ABLE TO
CATCH UP ON ALL THIS. SO I'M
GOING TO ASK YOUR HELP IN TRYING
TO DO THIS FAIRLY QUICKLY, IN
TERMS OF TRYING TO GET SOME OF
THE KEY INFORMATION OUT. SO IF
YOU COULD KEEP YOUR ANSWERS AS
BRIEF AS YOU CAN, PARTICIPATE
ONLY IF YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE
SOMETHING SPECIFIC TO ADD. ALL
OF YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADDRESS
EACH ONE OF THESE ISSUES AS THEY
COME UP. BUT I THINK IF I HAD TO
RANK ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT WE
SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO,
WE HAVE TO GO TO SAFETY FIRST.
AND, AND, AND THEN I'VE HEARD
DIFFERING OPINIONS ABOUT THE
ISSUE. AND I'M GOING TO TAKE THE
BIGGEST SAFETY ISSUE, WHICH IS
EXPLOSIONS, SO HOW EXPLOSIVE IS
HYDROGEN, AND YOU REFERENCED
THAT, MR. KAREM, THAT, YOU KNOW,
PRETTY SIGNIFICANT EXPLOSIVE
POTENTIAL OUT THERE, OTHER
PEOPLE HAVE OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT
THAT. I WANT TO TELL YOU WHAT
I'VE HEARD, THAT HYDROGEN
ESCAPES INTO THE ATMOSPHERE SO
FAST THAT IT DOESN'T GET A
CHANCE TO BUILD UP. SO COULD YOU
EXPLAIN THE EXPLOSIVE POTENTIAL
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND
ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO OFFER A
DIFFERENT ONE? I'D LIKE TO HEAR
THAT, BUT AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN.
SO SHORT EXPLANATION OF THAT
PLEASE. SURE. YEAH THANK YOU.
CHAIR. SO, METHANE HAS AN
EXPLOSIVE RANGE. THE
CONCENTRATION IN THE ATMOSPHERE
WHERE IT WILL IGNITE IS, 5 TO
15, AND HYDROGEN IS 4 TO 75. SO
A MUCH LARGER RANGE OF
CONCENTRATION WILL LEAD TO AN
EXPLOSION, ONCE IT DOES IGNITE,
IT HAS A MUCH FASTER, MORE
COMPLETE COMBUSTION THAN
METHANE. A RECENT STUDY FOUND
THAT HYDROGEN CAN CATCH FIRE 13
TIMES MORE EASILY THAN METHANE.
SO THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF, OF
THE EXPLOSIVENESS. IT IS MUCH
LIGHTER AND DOES, ESCAPE TO THE
ATMOSPHERE MUCH QUICKER THAN
METHANE, HOWEVER, THERE WHEN YOU
WERE TALKING ABOUT PIPELINES
THAT ARE UNDERGROUND, CERTAIN
INFRASTRUCTURE ON THE, ON THE
SURFACE, LIKE CONCRETE OR
CERTAIN TYPES OF, SOIL, CAN LEAD
TO UNDERGROUND MIGRATION AND IT
CAN FIND CONFINED SPACES LIKE
BASEMENTS TO ACCUMULATE. SO IT
IS STILL AN ISSUE. GREAT. THANK
YOU. LET ME ASK YOU A VERY
SPECIFIC QUESTION. IF YOU HAVE A
IF YOU HAVE HYDROGEN IN A TANK
AND THAT TANK GETS A PUNCTURE IN
IT, WELL, THAT HYDROGEN WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT ON THE FREEWAY, IF
SOMEBODY IS DRIVING WITH A
HYDROGEN TRUCK AND THERE IS
SOMEBODY SHOOTS A BULLET INTO
THAT, WILL THE HYDROGEN ESCAPE
FAST ENOUGH INTO THE ATMOSPHERE
THAT IT'S ABOVE THE 75%
CONCENTRATION AND NOT BE
EXPLOSIVE OR WOULD THAT COME OUT
AS A FLAME? OR WOULD THAT TURN
INTO AN EXPLOSION? FROM YOUR
PERSPECTIVE? I THINK OTHERS ON
THE PANEL CAN PROBABLY SPEAK TO
THAT A LITTLE BETTER, BUT I
WOULD IMAGINE IT COULD BE ANY OF
THE ABOVE, DEPENDING ON A RANGE
OF CONDITIONS. ONE OTHER ASPECT
OF HYDROGEN BECAUSE BECAUSE OF
ALL THESE THINGS, I, I MENTIONED
IT, IT DOESN'T NEED AS MUCH OF
AN IGNITION SOURCE AS METHANE.
IT CAN SPONTANEOUSLY COMBUST.
COMBUST AS WELL. THANK YOU. I'D
LIKE TO JUST PUT ONE TOO. SO
WE'RE GOING TO GO ONE, TWO.
ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO PARTICIPATE
ON THIS EXPLOSIVE QUESTION THREE
ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD. SO I THINK
GOOD GOOD POINTS ON HYDROGEN,
WITH ANY CHEMICAL YOU HAVE TO
YOU HAVE TO STAY CLOSE TO YOUR
MICROPHONE WITH, WITH ANY
CHEMICAL, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS.
THE KEY IS PREVENTION OF THE
LEAK TO BEGIN WITH, THAT'S WHERE
THIS REALLY STARTS. AND THEN
THAT COMES BACK TO IF YOU'RE
GOING TO DO SOMETHING THAT THE
SYSTEM IS ENGINEERED TO DO IT,
THAT THERE'S A ROBUST REGULATORY
FRAMEWORK. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE WE
HAVE THE PHMSA REGULATIONS. YOU
THEN HAVE EXPERTISE AND YOU'RE
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNING THAT
SYSTEM FOR THE MOLECULE THAT YOU
INTEND TO MANAGE. ITS ITS
PREVENTION. RIGHT AND THERE'S A
COMBINATION THERE OF REGULATION
THAT SETS A BASE FOUNDATION OVER
LAID WITH THAT IS EXPERIENCE
WHICH SAYS, OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO
GO ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT. WE'RE
GOING TO EXCEED THOSE
REGULATIONS IN THIS AREA BECAUSE
AS WE HAVE VERY SPECIFIC
EXPERTISE, BUT THE, THE ABSOLUTE
KEY TO PREVENTING CONCERNS OVER
ANY KIND OF ENERGY RELEASE IS
NOT HAVING IT TO BEGIN WITH.
GREAT. THANK YOU. ANY
DISAGREEMENT WITH, ANY
DISAGREEMENT WITH HIS EXPLOSIVE
CHARACTERIZATION? BECAUSE YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT A SOLUTION AND I'M
TALKING ABOUT THAT. GO AHEAD,
MR. BRUCATO. IF YOU FIRE A
BULLET, YOU DON'T DO YOU ANY
GOOD TO SPEAK. IF YOU'RE NOT,
THE EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING AND
NEUTRAL THAT IF YOU FIRE A
BULLET INTO A HYDROGEN TANK,
TYPICALLY ALL HYDROGEN TANKS AND
CARS CURRENTLY ARE 10,000 PSI.
YOU WILL NOT GET AN EXPLOSION.
THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM WITH
HYDROGEN. I THINK THE PROBLEM
WITH HYDROGEN IS WHAT EDF IS
GOING AFTER, WHICH IS LEAKAGE UP
IN THE AIR. IT'S THE
CONCENTRATION BELOW GROUND THAT
WILL HAPPEN. AND IT'S THAT AT
40,000 PARTS PER MILLION IN THE
TEST WE COMPLETED, WE ACHIEVED
THAT LEVEL IN ONE WEEK FLAT.
THINK ABOUT IT. A 30 YEAR
PIPELINE WITH EXPLOSIVE
CAPABILITY WITHIN THE FIRST WEEK
OF OPERATION. SO IT'S CLEAR TO
ME IT IS UNSAFE TO PUT A
HYDROGEN PIPELINE IN CALIFORNIA
TOTALLY APART FROM SHOOTING
BULLETS AT IT. AND WE CAN TALK
ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A
BACKHOE HIT A HYDROGEN PIPELINE
AS WELL. IF YOU LIKE, BECAUSE
THAT'S THE NEMESIS OF UTILITIES.
THANK YOU. NO DISAGREEMENT WITH
THE EXPLOSIVENESS
CHARACTERIZATION. EXCEPT YOU'RE
ADDING YOUR YOUR VIEW ON ON A
BULLET GOING INTO A, INTO A TANK
, CORRECT. THE BULLET GOING INTO
THE TANK, WHICH IS WHAT YOU
ASKED. YEAH. WILL NOT EXPLODE.
THERE ARE OTHER THINGS CAN
HAPPEN. AND FINAL SPEAKER ON
THIS. YEAH. THANK YOU. CHAIR
BENNETT, WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS
THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS
DEPLOYING $7 BILLION TO
STIMULATE HYDROGEN HUB ACTIVITY,
THERE IS A ROBUST FEDERAL EFFORT
TO CONTINUE WITH THE DEVELOPMENT
OF EXISTING STANDARDS. THE
EXISTING STANDARD REGIMENT IS
QUITE ROBUST, BUT THERE IS A
RECOGNITION THAT THAT WILL
CONTINUE AS WE DEPLOY MORE AND
MORE HYDROGEN. SO I WOULD
SUGGEST, JUST LASTLY, THE SAFEST
AND MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO MOVE
MOLECULAR ENERGY, LIKE HYDROGEN
IS IN A PIPELINE. THAT IS WHY WE
DO IT TODAY. GREAT. THANK YOU.
SO THAT THAT'S HELPFUL FOR ME TO
AN AGREEMENT. THERE IS AN
EXPLOSIVE POTENTIAL AND QUITE A
BIT OF THE SOLUTION IS
PREVENTION AS THE SAME THING AS
WE DO WITH OUR NATURAL GAS
PIPELINE. RIGHT NOW, I'M GOING
TO BE JUMPING, YOU KNOW, QUICKLY
VARIOUS PLACES, BUT YOU JUST BUT
IN IT THEN BUT OKAY. YEAH YES.
YEAH. JUST DO SOMETHING TAKING A
LITTLE JUST AND PERHAPS TAKING A
LITTLE BIT OF A STEP BACK, I
GUESS I'M NOT. I'M NOT CLEAR.
ARE WE IN CALIFORNIA SORT OF
SOLVING THESE, ANSWERING THESE
QUESTIONS AND SOLVING THESE
PROBLEMS FOR THE FIRST TIME, IT
WAS MY IMPRESSION THAT WHILST
THE FEDS HAVE $7 BILLION OF
INCENTIVES, WHILE WE KNOW
HYDROGEN IS A NASCENT INDUSTRY
THAT MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ARE
ACTUALLY QUITE A BIT AHEAD OF
US. SO I GUESS Ã IS THAT
ACCURATE AND BE WHO SHOULD WE BE
LOOKING TO AS MODELS WHO'S
ALREADY, GRAPPLED WITH SOME OF
THESE CHALLENGES AND SOLVED SOME
OF THESE PROBLEMS? OR ARE WE
REALLY BE THE FIRST IN THE
NATION TO BE CONTEMPLATING SOME
OF THESE THINGS? GO AHEAD. I'M
CERTAINLY HAPPY TO ANSWER THAT,
ASSEMBLY MEMBER THERE. THIS
THERE ARE EFFORTS
INTERNATIONALLY TO TRANSITION TO
PURE HYDROGEN PIPELINE, AND
ADDITIONALLY BLENDED SYSTEMS.
AGAIN, I WOULD POINT BACK TO
SYSTEMS WE ALREADY EXIST IN, IN
THE UNITED STATES, HAWAII IS AN
EXAMPLE OF A BLENDED SYSTEM THAT
HAS BEEN IN PLACE SINCE 1974,
UNDER THE EXISTING REGULATORY
REGIME, BUT INTERNATIONALLY,
WERE ONE TO LOOK TO EUROPE,
CERTAINLY THE NETHERLANDS, THE
SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES, NO, NO
LAGGARDS IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL
TRANSITION, MANY OF THOSE
COUNTRIES ARE TRANSITIONING
THEIR ENERGY SYSTEM TO,
ELECTRIFICATION, MOSTLY THROUGH
WIND. BUT RECOGNIZING THE
INTERMITTENCY OF THAT WIND, THEY
ARE DEPLOYING UTILITY GRADE,
UTILITY SCALE, HYDROGEN NETWORKS
TO SUPPORT JOBS, UNION JOBS,
THAT THAT EXIST PRIMARILY IN
THOSE INDUSTRIES THAT REQUIRE
HIGH HEAT MANUFACTURING. THANK
YOU, I'M GOING TO I'M GOING TO
JUMP COMPLETE TOPICS HERE.
TRADES. COULD YOU CLARIFY FOR US
WHICH TRADES WILL PLAY THE MOST
ACTIVE ROLE IN PIPELINE
DEVELOPMENT? I KNOW YOU YOU
MENTIONED IN YOUR INTRODUCTORY
COMMENTS ALL THE TRADES WILL BE
INVOLVED IN SOME WAY IN THE
HYDROGEN INDUSTRY, BUT WITH
PIPELINES IN PARTICULAR, CAN YOU
IDENTIFY THE TRADES IN
PARTICULAR AND WHICH UNIQUE
ROLES THEY MIGHT HAVE? YES, SIR,
MR. CHAIR, SO THE OPERATING
ENGINEERS WILL BE DIGGING THE
DITCH. OPERATING ENGINEERS ARE
THE BEST IN THE WORLD AT DIGGING
AND DOING THE EARTHWORK, THE
UNITED ASSOCIATION WILL BE DOING
THE WELDING AND THE JOINING OF
ALL THE PIPING, THROUGH
AUTOMATIC WELDING AND LOW
HYDROGEN WELDING. ACCORDING TO
WHAT THE HYDROGEN CURRENT SPEC
IS, IS STATING, THERE IS A
REVISION COMING OUT THIS YEAR TO
THAT, AND THE LABORERS WILL BE
THERE ALSO TO HELP. INSTALL
COAT, AND, MAKE SURE THAT THE
PROCESS IS, IS DONE ACCURATELY
AS FAR AS CORROSION AND EROSION.
SO, THE THREE MAJOR TRADES ARE
THE UA OPERATING ENGINEERS AND
THE LABORERS. GREAT. THANK YOU,
NEXT QUESTION. THIS IS A BROAD
QUESTION. IF EACH OF YOU COULD
WEIGH IN, IF YOU HAVE ANY
THOUGHTS, BUT KEEP IT BRIEF. AND
THAT IS JUST OVERALL WHAT SHOULD
THE ROLE OF THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT BE, IN
THIS IN THIS ISSUE, SOME PEOPLE
WOULD HAVE THE OPINION WE SHOULD
JUST SIT BACK AND LET THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO ALL OF
THIS. SOME PEOPLE SAY THE STATE
NEEDS TO SET UP ITS OWN
STANDARDS, EVEN IF THE STATE
DOESN'T SET UP ITS OWN STANDARDS
, WHAT KIND OF ROLE SHOULD THE
STATE PLAY? YOU WANT TO JUST
WORK YOUR WAY AROUND REAL QUICK
AND GIVE US A BROAD OVERVIEW OF
THAT? YEAH, I WOULD SAY SO. IF
YOU IF YOU LOOK TODAY, THERE ARE
FEDERAL REGULATIONS AROUND PHMSA
IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER STATES,
THOSE OTHER STATES LIKE TEXAS,
THEY HAVE A STATE AGENCY, TEXAS
RAILROAD COMMISSION, THAT
SUPPORTS THE REGULATION OF
PIPELINE, OUR VIEW IS THAT IS
WHAT CALIFORNIA SHOULD FOCUS ON
IS THE SAFETY ASPECTS OF THE
REGULATION OF PIPE LINES BUILT
OFF OF THE FEDERAL STRUCTURE.
THERE MAY BE SOME NUANCES THAT,
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ELECT TO WANT
TO DO IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
. VÀ. BUT BUT THAT'S THE REAL
VALUE OF STATE REGULATION IS
SAFETY AND ENSURING WHAT'S BUILT
IS SAFE TO OPERATE. GREAT. ALL
RIGHT, MR. MUELLER, ANY ANY
THOUGHTS? YES, SIR. I WAS GOING
TO SAY SIMILAR, WE NEED THAT'S
FINE. WE NEED THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA OSHA, CAL OSHA,
SUPERSEDES THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT. AND A LOT OF WAYS,
CALIFORNIA LEADS THE NATION IN
TECHNOLOGY AND FUTURE, CLEAN
ENERGY, SO I THINK THAT
CALIFORNIA LEGISLATORS, ALONG
WITH THE STATE BUILDING TRADES,
SHOULD BE GUIDING AND MAKING
SURE THAT THAT THE INDUSTRY, AND
ALL OF US ARE WORKING TOGETHER
IS GREAT. MR. NORTON, WHAT I
WOULD SAY, IF CERTAINLY I WOULD,
CONCUR WITH THE SAFETY ELEMENTS.
WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST, THOUGH,
THAT THE SUCCESS OF CALIFORNIA
WITH THE RENEWABLE PORTFOLIO
STANDARD ON THE ELECTRIC SIDE
AND THE LOW CARBON FUEL STANDARD
ON THE ON THE AUTOMOTIVE SIDE,
SOMETHING AKIN TO THAT IS
NECESSARY TO DECARBONIZE GASEOUS
FUELS. OKAY, GREAT, AND, MR.
KHN, YEAH, I THINK THE
REGULATORS ROLE TO ENSURE
THAT THERE IS NO LEAKAGE, THAT
OPERATORS HAVE STRONG INTEGRITY
MANAGEMENT PROGRAMS, THAT THOSE
PIPES ARE MAINTAINED AND THAT
AND TO ENSURE THAT SITING IS
SITING OF THESE PIPELINES AS
SAFE AND EQUITABLE, WOULD YOUR
ORIGINAL COMMENT, YOUR
INTRODUCTORY COMMENTS WAS THAT
THERE SHOULD BE WE SHOULD NOT
ALLOW BLENDING OF HYDROGEN. IS
THAT A ROLE THAT THE STATE
SHOULD PLAY? SEPARATE FROM THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I BELIEVE SO
, THE STATE HAS, IS HAS THE
ABILITY TO IMPLEMENT SAFETY
STANDARDS FOR INTRA STATE
PIPELINES. AND DISTRIBUTION
SYSTEMS ARE LARGELY INTRA STATE
PIPELINES. AND THAT WOULD BE THE
STATE'S ROLE, TO PUT SOMETHING
LIKE THAT IN PLACE. THANK YOU,
MR. BROOKOVER. YEAH I THINK THAT
IT'S GOING TO PROVE TO BE
ECONOMICALLY UNWISE TO BLEND.
JUST FOR THE RECORD, ONE OF OUR
CONSULTING ENGINEERS IN OUR
COMPANY RAN THE HYDROGEN
BLENDING PROGRAM IN HAWAII FOR
MANY, MANY YEARS. SO WE'RE
COMPLETELY FAMILIAR WITH THE
BLENDING SITUATION IN HAWAII,
WHICH HAS BEEN DOING IT, AS
YOU'VE NOW HEARD, 20 YEARS. AND
WE DON'T RECOMMEND IT, WE THINK
IT'S A MISTAKE AND WE THINK IT'S
A MISTAKE THAT WILL PROVE TO BE
UNECONOMIC OVER TIME. MORE
IMPORTANTLY, THOUGH, WHAT THE
STATE MUST DO IS IT HAS TO STOP
THE MONOPOLY PRICING THAT'S
CHOKING THE ENTIRE HYDROGEN
INDUSTRY, BECAUSE THE OPEN
ACCESS PIPELINE, WHICH WE
TOTALLY AGREE WITH, THE SOCAL
GAS IS ATTEMPTING, IT CAN'T WORK
IF IT'S GOING TO BE $36 A
KILOGRAM AT THE PUMP. WHEN
EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT RIGHT NOW,
AIR PRODUCTS, FOR EXAMPLE, MAKES
IT FOR A DOLLAR AND A HALF A
KILOGRAM. SO IT'S LIKE SOMEHOW
WE'VE GOT TO HAVE THE STATE
INVESTIGATE. HOW DID THE PRICE
GET TO $36, WHICH HAS CAUSED THE
HYDROGEN MIRACLE THAT WAS
STARTING TO HAPPEN HERE, 17,000
CARS, ALL KINDS OF TRUCKS,
LOCOMOTIVES COMING. AND ALL OF A
SUDDEN IT'S DYING. BECAUSE
THE PRICING GOT MONOPOLISTIC AND
THE STATE NEEDS TO OF GERMANY,
SPAIN, AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT,
FRANCE, WHICH IS THE QUESTION
WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO THE
MONOPOLISTIC ISSUE IN A MOMENT.
SO THANKS FOR ANYTHING ELSE. IN
TERMS OF THE STATE REGULATIONS
BESIDES THOSE ARE MR. ROTH, RAJA
RAJA. YES, YES. I THINK THAT THE
STATE SHOULD AGGRESSIVELY, TAKE
ITS OWN STEPS, NOT JUST WAIT FOR
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BOTH
FROM PURSUING, DEDICATED
HYDROGEN PIPELINES WHERE THEY
CAN BE BUILT, BUT ALSO EXPLORING
THE BLENDING OPTION. I THINK WE
HAVE FOUR RECOMMENDATIONS. ONE
IS TO DO PILOT SCALE BLENDING
FROM 5 TO 20, AND THEN THE
SECOND WOULD BE TO DO,
LABORATORY SCALE R&D TO SUPPORT
HIGHER BLENDING PERCENTAGES AND
OTHER OPTIONS FOR THE FUTURE.
THE THIRD WOULD BE TO WORK WITH
THE UTILITIES, THE REGULATORY
AGENCIES AND OTHERS TO DEVELOP
UPDATED MAINTENANCE AND
OPERATION PROTOCOLS AND
REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS FOR THE
PIPELINES AND SAFETY STANDARDS.
SO OBVIOUSLY, THE FOURTH, BUT
MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT IS TO
ENGAGE WITH THE COMMUNITY. THAT
WILL BE, PART OF THIS PROCESS
AND OTHER STAKEHOLDERS TO MAKE
SURE THAT THEIR PRIORITIES ARE
UNDERSTOOD. GREAT. THANK YOU,
MISS MURPHY. YES. THANK YOU, A
COUPLE POINTS. FIRST, YOU KNOW,
I MENTIONED EARLIER THAT PHMSA
AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL ESTABLISHES
MINIMUM PIPELINE SAFETY
STANDARDS. BUT ANOTHER KEY
COMPONENT OF THAT IS THAT STATE
AGENCIES, FIRST OF ALL, ARE ABLE
TO GET AUTHORIZATION FROM PHMSA
TO IMPLEMENT AND ENFORCE AND
OVERSEE THOSE STANDARDS WITHIN
THEIR STATE, WHICH CALIFORNIA
DOES, AND THAT ALSO STATES ARE
ABLE TO EXCEED THOSE FEDERAL
STANDARDS AND ESTABLISH MORE
PROTECTIVE STANDARDS FOR
PIPELINE OVERSIGHT IN THEIR
STATE, WE'VE SEEN CALIFORNIA DO
THAT AND TRULY BE A LEADER, IN
ENSURING THE MINIMIZATION OF
METHANE EMISSIONS FROM THE GAS
PIPELINE SYSTEM. I THINK
SIMILARLY, THERE'S AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR LEADERSHIP IN
THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AND
WE'RE IN EARLY DAYS, BUT
THINKING ABOUT WHAT IS NEEDED TO
MITIGATE, HYDROGEN LEAKAGE FROM
DEDICATED PIPELINES OR FROM
BLENDED PIPELINES, IF THAT WERE
TO OCCUR, AND THINK ABOUT WHAT
THOSE STANDARDS SHOULD LOOK LIKE
TO ENSURE THAT OPERATORS ARE
REALLY MEETING THE HIGHEST
STANDARD FOR SAFETY AND
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION. I ALSO
THINK, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF
WHAT CALIFORNIA'S ROLE IS, THERE
IS A STRONG NEED TO MANAGE, ANY
INJECTION OR BLENDING OF
HYDROGEN INTO THE EXISTING
NATURAL GAS PIPELINE SYSTEM, AND
THERE'S A LOT GOING ON, I KNOW
WITH THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC
UTILITIES COMMISSION ON THIS
TOPIC, EDF HAS PUT FORWARD SOME
RECOMMENDED OPTIONS, FOR A SET
OF PRINCIPLES FOR HOW TO
EVALUATE HYDROGEN METHANE
BLENDING PROPOSALS, BUT SORT OF
THE FIRST TOP OF THE LIST FOR
THOSE PRINCIPLES IS THE NEED TO
CONSIDER WHAT THE OBJECTIVE IS.
SO RATHER THAN JUST SAYING,
WELL, WE COULD START INJECTING
HYDROGEN INTO THE PIPELINE
SYSTEM AND MAYBE WE CAN CUT OUR
EMISSIONS BY 1% IN THE NEAR
TERM, WHAT IS THE LONG TERM
OBJECTIVE AND WHAT IS THE GOAL?
AND TO REALLY CAREFULLY EVALUATE
HYDROGEN BLENDING AGAINST OTHER
DECARBONIZATION SOLUTIONS,
INCLUDING ELECTRIFICATION. THANK
YOU. SO THAT IF WE'RE LOOKING AT
RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL
BUILDINGS WHERE ELECTRIFICATION
IS REALLY EXPECTED TO BE THE
PREFERRED DECARBONIZATION
PATHWAY, DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO,
YOU KNOW, INVEST IN ALL OF THE
INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADES THAT ARE
NEEDED TO SAFELY BLEND WHEN DOWN
THE LINE? THOSE CUSTOMERS ARE
GOING TO BE EXITING THE GAS
SYSTEM ENTIRELY. THANK YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WELL, WE'RE
STILL IN SORT OF THE BROAD
TOPICS OF THIS THIS MAY BE A BIT
OF A CURVE, BUT IF YOU COULD
BRIEFLY, WHAT WHAT ARE THE RISKS
THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR
FROM A LEGISLATIVE STANDPOINT?
WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL BIGGEST
ERRORS WE COULD MAKE IF YOU
COULD IDENTIFY 1 OR 2 THAT YOU
WOULD WANT TO GET ON OUR RADAR
SCREEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE
CAUTIONS AS WE MOVE FORWARD
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ROLE
THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHOULD
PLAY, AND ANYBODY WANTS TO JUMP
FIRST EITHER WAY. OTHERWISE I'M
JUST GOING TO GO AND START AGAIN
WITH MR. CONNELLY. SORT OF
UNFAIR BECAUSE I DIDN'T GIVE YOU
MUCH, MUCH WARNING IN TERMS OF
THAT. BUT WE'LL COME BACK TO YOU
AT THE END AFTER YOU OFFER
ANYTHING THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT
NOW. I WOULD, AS I TOUCHED ON
PREVIOUSLY, I THINK KIND OF TWO
THINGS SAFETY, AND MAINTAINING A
COMPETITIVE MARKETPLACE. GREAT.
THANK YOU. I WANT US TO BE 15 TO
20 SECOND SORT OF RAPID FIRE.
ANYTHING MR. MULLINER,
UNDERGROUND LEAK DETECTION,
THAT'S THAT'S HUGE. THE, DOUBLE
CONTAINMENT AT THE AT THE FUEL
STATIONS. WE ALL HAVE SEEN FUEL
STATIONS BE RE PIPED 2 OR 3
TIMES WITHIN A 5 OR 6 YEAR
PERIOD. I THINK WE PROBABLY
EVERYBODY IN THIS ROOM HAS SEEN
THAT HAPPEN. AND IT'S BRAND NEW
TANKS. IT'S UNDERGROUND, IT'S
THE INSTALLATION IS THE PROBLEM.
MR. I WOULD CONCUR WITH SAFETY.
I WOULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT WE
NEED TO SERIOUSLY TAKE SERIOUSLY
THE NEED TO LOOK AT THE
INTEGRATED ENERGY SYSTEM AND THE
RELIABILITY OF BOTH THE ELECTRIC
AND GAS SYSTEM COMBINED. THANK
YOU, MR. KHN. THERE'S BEEN A
MOVEMENT, IN PIPELINE SAFETY
REGULATIONS TOWARDS A
PERFORMANCE BASED REGULATION.
DOES THAT LEAVE A LOT UP TO THE
OPERATOR DISCRETION? MAKES IT
AND IT, WHICH WHICH ENCOURAGES
INNOVATION, BUT IT MAKES IT HARD
TO ENFORCE AND HARD TO INSPECT
FROM THE REGULATORY PERSPECTIVE.
SO I THINK FINDING THE BALANCE
BETWEEN PRESCRIPTIVE AND
PERFORMANCE BASED REGULATIONS IS
IMPORTANT. THANK YOU. MR.
PERMITTING. ANY FUTURE USE OF
PIPELINES FOR HYDROGEN THAT
ISN'T A SAFETY PIPE. IT'S, BY
DEFINITION, CONTAINMENT,
CONTINUOUS MONITORING, SWEEP GAS
TECHNOLOGY THAT HAS ZERO
EMISSIONS OF HYDROGEN MOLECULES.
THAT'S THE GOAL. AND I THINK
IT'S CRITICAL WE STOP THINKING
OF GOING GREEN BY A 20%
INJECTION OF METHANE OF HYDROGEN
INTO AN 80% METHANE POOL. I
MEAN, THE IDEA OF BLENDING
DOESN'T GET YOU TO GREEN, IN
FACT, COSTS YOU MORE ENERGY IN
THE LONG RUN. AND IT'S NOT
ECONOMIC. MR. RAJU, I THINK THE
BIGGEST POTENTIAL MISTAKE COULD
BE, MOVING FORWARD WITHOUT A
COMPREHENSIVE INTEGRATED
PLANNING FOR OUR ENERGY
INFRASTRUCTURE, HOW ARE WE GOING
TO ACHIEVE OUR GOALS? AND THE
SECOND WOULD BE NOT HAVING
SAFETY, MAINTENANCE AND
OPERATIONAL PROTOCOLS THAT ARE
UPDATED AND ARE, RELEVANT AND
ADEQUATE IN PLACE. GREAT THANK
YOU, MISS MURPHY. THANKS. I
THINK, IN ASSURING THAT THE
OVERSIGHT FRAMEWORK THAT'S
DEVELOPED FOR HYDROGEN
INFRASTRUCTURE INCORPORATES
CLIMATE CONSIDERATIONS INTO
EVERY ASPECT WHICH MIGHT SOUND
SILLY BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE
REASON WE'RE FOCUSED ON
DEPLOYING HYDROGEN IS TO ACHIEVE
DECARBONIZATION AND ADDRESS
CLIMATE CHANGE. BUT WHEN YOU
LOOK AT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, AS A
PARALLEL WITH THE NATURAL GAS
PIPELINE SYSTEM AND THE
REGULATORY FRAMEWORK AROUND IT,
IT REALLY WAS NOT DESIGNED WITH
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS IN MIND
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, DECADES AGO,
THERE WAS NOT THIS CONSIDERATION
OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL HARMS POSED
BY METHANE EMISSIONS. SO AS
WE'RE DEVELOPING, YOU KNOW,
OVERSIGHT FRAMEWORKS FOR THE
DEPLOYMENT OF HYDROGEN IN A
RESPONSIBLE WAY, NOT MAKING THAT
SAME MISTAKE TWICE AND ENSURING
THAT THE CLIMATE CONSIDERATIONS
ARE REALLY BUILT INTO ALL
ELEMENTS OF OVERSIGHT WITH THE
RECOGNITION THAT LEAKAGE
CONTRIBUTES TO CLIMATE CHANGE
AND NEEDS TO BE MINIMIZED. THANK
YOU VERY MUCH, I JUST WANT TO
EMPHASIZE HOW VALUABLE ALREADY
YOUR RESPONSES HAVE BEEN, JUST
FROM MY STANDPOINT, IN TERMS OF
TRYING TO MAKE SURE WE CAPTURE
ALL OF THE IMPORTANT ISSUES. SO
THANK YOU. WE'RE GOING TO DIVE
DEEPER NOW INTO THIS. AND THAT
IS THE THERE'S THE ISSUE OF WHAT
IS THE SCALE OF THE PIPELINE,
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED TO
DEVELOP. FROM YOUR OPINION, WHAT
IS HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THE ISSUE
OF LOCATION? WE'VE HAD COMMENTS
ABOUT THAT. AND THEN, YOU KNOW,
THE $64,000 QUESTION, WHAT ABOUT
THE COMPETITIVENESS? THAT'S THE
ISSUE OF PRIVATE PIPELINES
VERSUS OPEN ACCESS PIPELINES AND
HOW WE DEAL WITH THAT. SO I'M
GOING TO WRAP ALL THREE OF THOSE
TOGETHER AND GIVE YOU A LITTLE
BIT MORE TIME IN TERMS OF
ANSWERING AND BECAUSE THESE TWO
GENTLEMEN OVER HERE ARE MOST OF
MOST, MOST INTERESTED PROBABLY
IN THAT TOPIC, I'M GOING TO OPEN
THIS UP SORT OF IN ANY ORDER
THAT YOU WANT TO TRY TO WEIGH
IN. BUT I'D LIKE YOUR ANSWER TO,
TO TRY TO DEAL WITH. GIVE US IN
A AS BRIEFLY AS POSSIBLE, YOUR
SENSE OF WHETHER THIS IS GOING
TO BE A SMALL SCALE, MEDIUM
SCALE, LARGE SCALE, WHATEVER,
WHATEVER METRIC YOU WANT TO USE
FOR THAT IN TERMS OF SCALE,
LOCATION AND THEN HOW DO WE DEAL
WITH THE ISSUE OF
COMPETITIVENESS, ETC. YOU STOOD
UP FIRST. I'LL GOOD, I'LL, I'LL
START HERE WITH, I WOULD SAY A
PERSPECTIVE IS WE SHOULD ALLOW
IT TO BE MARKET DRIVEN BY, BY
WHERE THE NEED IS AND WHERE THE
HIGHEST VALUE IS AND THAT
HIGHEST VALUE IS FOCUSED ON
EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS. AND THEN
ELIMINATION AND REDUCTION OF
PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARDS IN THOSE
AREAS. A VERY, VERY BROAD ED
STRATEGY, A VERY, A VERY BROAD
STRATEGY. Kò, IS GOING TO BE
ENORMOUSLY COSTLY BECAUSE OF THE
, MONEY IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO
BRING THE SYSTEM, UP TO THE
STANDARD TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE
HYDROGEN. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A
LOT OF QUESTIONS AROUND
ELECTRIFICATION WHERE THAT'S
USED. OUR VIEW IS THERE'S MARKET
NICHES TODAY, HEAVY
TRANSPORTATION, HEAVY INDUSTRY
THAT ARE READY AND THEY WANT TO
USE HYDROGEN TODAY. AND WE LET
THAT ACTUALLY DRIVE, WHAT WE DO
VERSUS A VERY, VERY BROAD HEY
HYDROGEN IS GOOD FOR EVERYWHERE.
IT'S NOT I THINK SOME OF THE
ARGUMENTS OVER, HEY, WHAT'S
GOING TO GET ELECTRIFIED? WHAT'S
NOT THAT WILL REMAIN TO BE SEEN.
BUT WE ALLOW IT TO BE DRIVEN BY
BY. HEY, I WANT HYDROGEN TODAY
BECAUSE I WANT TO SWITCH THIS
PARTICULAR FLEET OF VEHICLES
OVER. AND THEN IT'S A MARKET
NEED. AND THEN YOU'RE CREATING A
COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT. IF
AMAZON WANTS TO GO DECARBONIZE
ONE OF ITS WAREHOUSES, IT'S NOT
GOING TO GO TO A MONOPOLY. IT'S
GOING TO GO OUT WITH AN RFQ AND
INDUSTRY IS GOING TO
COMPETITIVELY BID TO BUILD THE
HYDROGEN PLANT OR CREATE THE
HYDROGEN, PUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE
IN THE GROUND, AND THAT'S GOING
TO END UP WITH THE LOWEST COST.
JUST TO FOLLOW UP TO THAT, DO
YOU TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU SEE IF
IT'S GOING TO BE MARKET DRIVEN
AND THEREFORE ALMOST I WANT TO
SAY EPISODIC IN TERMS OF HOW
WHERE IT EVOLVES, ETC. WHAT ROLE
DO YOU SEE PIPELINES PLAYING IN
THAT LESS OR MORE? IS IT MORE
LIKELY THAT HYDROGEN IS GOING TO
BE TRANSPORTED SOME OTHER WAY
BESIDES PIPELINES TO THAT AMAZON
PLANT, OR WILL THE HYDROGEN BE
PRODUCED AT THAT AMAZON PLANT,
AND THEREFORE NOT NEED A LARGE
INFRASTRUCTURE? MAYBE, PERHAPS
SOME PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE, I
THINK A LOT OF THIS IS GOING TO
NEED PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE. SO
IT REALLY IT DEPENDS ON THE
VOLUME OF HYDROGEN USED. YOU
KNOW, THE, THE TYPICAL MODE OF
ROAD TRANSPORTATION IS LIQUEFIED
HYDROGEN. SO WE MAKE THAT TODAY.
WE SHIP THAT AROUND TO SMALL
USERS. ONCE YOU GET TO A CERTAIN
ECONOMY OF SCALE, THEN YOU END
UP IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU
EITHER MAKE THE HYDROGEN ON SITE
OR YOU'RE PIPING THE HYDROGEN TO
THE SITE AND IN A GASEOUS FORM,
IN A GASEOUS FORM, IF YOU ARE
MAKING IT ON SITE, YOU NEED A
LOT OF SPACE TO MAKE HYDROGEN
RIGHT. YOU YOU MAY NEED A
NATURAL GAS PIPELINE TO THAT
FACILITY TO MAKE HYDROGEN. SO I
THINK IN IN LARGE VOLUMES,
PIPELINE WILL BE AND I THINK IS
PIPELINES ARE RECOGNIZED AS ONE
OF THE SAFEST FORMS OF MATERIAL
TRANSPORTATION. OKAY THANK YOU.
NEXT. GO AHEAD. START CHAIR
BENNETT, I WOULD POINT TO A FEW
THINGS. ONE IS THAT HERETOFORE
HYDROGEN IN THE ECONOMY HAS
GENERALLY BEEN A CHEMICAL
PRECURSOR. SO A CHEMICAL FOR THE
PRODUCTION OF PETROLEUM AS AN
EXAMPLE. WHAT IS CHANGING IS, IS
THAT HYDROGEN IS NOW BEING USED
AS AN ENERGY CARRIER, MUCH LIKE
ELECTRICITY OR NATURAL GAS, IF
YOU WERE TO LOOK AS AN ISSUE OF
SCALE TO THE STATE'S OWN,
ESTIMATES OF THE POTENTIAL FOR
HYDROGEN, I WOULD POINT NO
FURTHER THAN ARCHES, WHICH IS
THE SUCCESSFUL WINNER OF, OF THE
HYDROGEN HUB THERE, 2045, FIGURE
FOR HYDROGEN USE POTENTIAL IN
CALIFORNIA IS 16 MILLION METRIC
TONS A YEAR. THAT'S A
SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF HYDROGEN
THAT WOULD CAN ONLY BE DELIVERED
USING PIPELINES. AND THE OTHER
THING I WOULD POINT TO IS THAT,
CITIES SUCH AS THE LOS ANGELES
IN THEIR LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT
OF WATER AND POWER HAVE FIRMLY
POINTED TOWARDS THE NEED FOR
HYDROGEN TO BACK UP THE ELECTRIC
SYSTEM WHEN THE RENEWABLES ARE
NOT AVAILABLE. TO DATE, THE
SUCCESS OF ELECTRIFICATION AND
RENEWABLES DEPLOYMENT IS
ENTIRELY UNDERPINNED BY THE
AVAILABILITY OF DISPATCHABLE
ELECTRIC GENERATION USING
NATURAL GAS. ULTIMATELY, THAT
NEEDS TO BE DECARBONIZED BY
SOMETHING THAT LOOKS A LOT LIKE
HYDROGEN, THE MR. AS I SAID IN
MY OPENING REMARKS. SO OUR
COMPANY HOLDS PATENTS FOR BOTH
CRYOGENIC LIQUID HYDROGEN AND OF
COURSE, GASEOUS. SO WE HAVE NO
BIAS TOWARDS WHICH FORM HYDROGEN
TRANSPORT TAKES. WE FOCUS MERELY
ON HOW TO MOVE MOLECULES FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE. BUT IT IS
CLEAR THAT THE DEMAND SIDE OF
THE EQUATION IN CALIFORNIA IS
BADLY BROKEN. YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE
INDUSTRY. EVERY CAR MAKER THAT
PUT IN HYDROGEN CARS INTO THIS
MARKET IS NOW UNBELIEVABLY
HURTING BECAUSE OF MONOPOLY
PRICING. I GO BACK TO WHAT I
SAID EARLIER. IT'S A DOLLAR AND
A HALF A KILOGRAM TO MAKE. NO
ONE CAN DISPUTE IT. AND THEY'RE
SELLING IT FOR $36 A KILOGRAM AT
THE PUMP. WHAT DOES THAT SAY?
YOU NEED AN OPEN ACCESS
DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM SO MONOPOLY
PRICING CANNOT OCCUR. I'M OKAY
IF IT'S PRIVATELY OWNED. I'M
OKAY IF IT'S OWNED BY THE
UTILITY. BUT AT THE END OF THE
DAY, WE HAVE TO HAVE THE
INFRASTRUCTURE TO ACCOMPLISH
THAT. LET ME GIVE YOU AN
EXAMPLE. LOS ANGELES COUNTY,
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO
PUT A NATURAL GAS STOVE IN YOUR
HOUSE ANYMORE. THAT'S OKAY. YOU
CAN PUT AN INDUCTION COOKING
UNIT IN. AND WHEN YOU DO THAT,
THE ELECTRICITY WILL COME FROM
THE GRID. HOW THE ELECTRICITY
GOT TO THE GRID IS A VERY
INTERESTING CONVERSATION.
CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF WHERE IT
COULD COME FROM A FUEL CELL, AS
NEIL JUST SAID, POWERING UP
DURING PEAKING HOURS LIKE WE
USED TO DO WITH PETROLEUM
PRODUCTS. THAT PARTICULAR WAY OF
BRIDGING MOLECULE TO ELECTRON IS
EXACTLY THE FUTURE FOR HOW
CALIFORNIA SHOULD BE PIONEERING
THIS, AND IT WILL BE REVIEWED BY
EVERYBODY. I WORKED DIRECTLY
WITH THE PRIVATE OFFICE OF
MACRON, THE PRESIDENT OF FRANCE,
AND WHAT THEY'VE TOLD ME
REPEATEDLY IS WE KEEP WAITING
FOR CALIFORNIA TO SHOW US HOW TO
DO IT. AND THEN WE WILL COPY.
AND THAT'S A QUOTE BY A MAN
NAMED LYNDON WHO'S HIS PRINCIPAL
DEPUTY. WHERE DO YOU SEE THE
MONOPOLY CURRENTLY? WHERE DO YOU
SEE THE MONOPOLISTIC PRICING
POWER AT THIS POINT IN TIME FOR
YOUR PRODUCTS, FOR YOUR EXAMPLE,
FROM $1 TO 36, IT'S OUR PRODUCTS
, BY FAR THE LARGEST ONE IN THE
STATE. AND IF HE WANTS TO CREATE
DEMAND HERE, SIMPLE, CHARGE A
FAIR PRICE AND LET HIM PROVE TO
THE STATE WHY IT HAS TO BE $36
AT THE PUMP, NOT A DOLLAR AND A
HALF PLUS TRANSPORTATION COSTS.
SO WE WOULD BE HAPPY. WE CAN
SHOW YOU, BY THE WAY, COST OF
INSTALLING NEW PIPE STEAM ALL
POLYPIPE, WHICH IS PROBABLY A
BETTER ANSWER FOR PIPE IN
CALIFORNIA. WE CAN SHOW YOU HOW
YOU CAN MAKE IT VERY SMALL. I'M
I'M GOING TO OVER AND OVER
AGAIN. I'M GOING TO KEEP
STOPPING YOU GUYS WHEN YOU START
TO GO PLACES. GO AHEAD. YEAH.
CAN I ASK JUST A FOLLOW UP
QUESTION ON THE PRICING TOPIC? I
THINK THERE'S ALWAYS THERE'S
ALWAYS LIKE A NEW SUB TOPIC.
EVERY TIME WE HAVE A HEARING ON
HYDROGEN, THERE'S A NEW
ADVENTURE. OKAY. SO WHAT YOU
JUST SAID, NAMELY THAT IT'S A
DOLLAR. YOU SAID IT'S, YOU KNOW,
150 PER KILOGRAM TO PRODUCE AND
IT'S BEING SOLD BY, YOU KNOW,
IT'S $36 PER KILOGRAM. CORRECT.
OKAY. IS THAT WIDELY AGREED
UPON? DOES EVERYONE AGREE WITH
THAT? OKAY. IT'S A FACT. SO WHAT
WHAT'S THE REASON FOR THAT?
THAT'S WHAT I WANT. THE STATE TO
GET INTO INVOLVED WITH, BECAUSE
I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO FIND
IT'S MONOPOLY PRICING. AND ONCE
YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT THE REASON
IS, BUT YOUR HYPOTHESIS IS THAT
IT'S JUST NO MONOPOLY, I'VE
ACTUALLY BROKEN DOWN WHO'S
GETTING WHAT PIECE OF THE PIE,
AND IT'S PRETTY BAD. SO WHAT YOU
WANT TO DO IS LOOK AT THE TWO
SOURCES OF MAJOR HYDROGEN
DISTRIBUTION TODAY. AND YOU SAY,
HOW COULD WE CREATE A SYSTEM
THAT WOULD BE EQUITABLE AND
WOULD CAUSE THE HYDROGEN MARKET
TO GROW MUCH FASTER AND MUCH
LESS EXPENSIVELY? AND BY THE
WAY, NEW HYDROGEN PIPELINE IN
THE POLYPIPE VERSION IS CHEAPER
THAN STEEL TO PUT IN NEW. SO
WHAT WE NEED IS THE STATE TO
LOOK AT THIS REALLY IN A HARD
WAY. LOOK AT THE SAFETY, LOOK AT
THE PRICING, AND GO AHEAD AND
SET THE PATTERN FOR THE FUTURE
TO THE POINT THE CHAIRMAN MADE
EARLIER. I THINK WE SHOULD BE
THE TRENDSETTER IN AMERICA.
FRANKLY IN THE WORLD. ARE THERE
OTHER THEORIES? SO AND SO $36
PER PER KILOGRAM. HOW DOES THAT
COMPARE WITH WHAT HYDROGEN IS
GETTING SOLD IN OTHER MARKETS?
GERMANY, IT'S $10. IN GERMANY
IT'S TEN. SO ARE THERE OTHER
AGAIN, TRYING TO KEEP WITH THE
CHAIR'S RAPID FIRE APPROACH IN
30S OR LESS OTHER THEORIES FOR
WHY WE'RE SEEING SUCH A HUGE
PRICE DIFFERENTIAL HERE IN
CALIFORNIA. SO I'D SAY I
OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T WANT TO GET
INTO HOW INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS
CGRTS AND HOW THINGS ARE PRICED,
BUT IT'S A IT'S A COMPETITIVE
MARKETPLACE. THAT'S THE PRICE
OUT THERE FOR HYDROGEN. WE
WELCOME OTHER PEOPLE TO ENTER
THE INDUSTRY, BUILD PLANTS,
BUILD PIPELINES AND SUPPLY. AND
THAT'S WILL ULTIMATELY DRIVE
DOWN THE COST TO THE CONSUMER.
OKAY. SO WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN
THE MARKETPLACE. YEAH. IS A
COMPETITIVE MARKETPLACE OKAY. SO
ARE THERE THOUGHTS. ANYONE GO
AHEAD. YES. ASSEMBLY ASSEMBLY
MEMBER I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IF
THE NATURAL GAS MARKET, WHICH
DELIVERS MUCH OF THE SIGNIFICANT
PORTION OF THE NATION'S ENERGY
TODAY IS AN EXAMPLE, THE,
DISAGGREGATION OR RESTRUCTURING
OF THE GAS MARKET THAT TOOK
PLACE, 30 TO 40 YEARS AGO,
WHEREBY VÌ OPEN ACCESS
PIPELINES, NON-DISCRIMINATIVE
FREE ACCESS TO PIPELINE NETWORKS
PROVIDED THE OPPORTUNITY FOR
SMALL AND LARGE ESTABLISHED AND
NEW PROVIDERS OF NATURAL GAS, IN
THIS CASE HYDROGEN. IN THE
FUTURE, FOR, ACCESS TO A
PIPELINE SYSTEM WHICH WE KNOW IS
NECESSARY AND ACCESS TO OFF
TAKERS WHO WANT THIS CLEAN
ENERGY. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ADD
GOING BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL
QUESTION, IN TERMS OF THE,
EXTENSIVENESS OR MATURITY OF THE
INFRASTRUCTURE, I THINK AS I
SAID IN MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS, WE
NEED A FUEL INFRASTRUCTURE
THAT'S AS ROBUST AS EITHER
NATURAL GAS OR PETROLEUM
INFRASTRUCTURE TO COMPLEMENT THE
ELECTRIC GRID. AND THIS CAN BE
USED FOR, FOR, YOU KNOW,
CHEMICAL PRODUCTION, ELECTRICITY
PRODUCTION FOR BACKUP, LONG
DURATION ENERGY STORAGE, ALL OF
THOSE THINGS GOING TO THE
PRICING ASPECT, WE SHOULD ALWAYS
EXPECT RENEWABLE FUELS TO BE
MUCH, MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE AND
DIFFICULT TO PRODUCE COMPARED TO
FOSSIL FUELS. AND THAT'S TRUE
FOR ALL OF THE RENEWABLE FUELS,
INCLUDING EVEN RENEWABLE
ELECTRICITY WAS SUBSTANTIALLY
MORE EXPENSIVE A COUPLE OF
DECADES AGO. RIGHT NOW, I THINK
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE HYDROGEN
MARKET IS THERE'S A HUGE SUPPLY
DEMAND IMBALANCE AND ALL THE
HYDROGEN PRODUCED TODAY HAS BEEN
SPOKEN FOR, MEANING IT'S ALREADY
USED FOR CHEMICAL PRODUCTION OR
OTHER PURPOSES. AND THE
TRANSPORTATION INDUSTRY IS KIND
OF A NASCENT INDUSTRY THAT'S
KIND OF GETTING INTO THE DEMAND
MARKET. SO WHAT THE STATE NEEDS
TO DO IS TO REALLY SUPPORT,
THROUGH INCENTIVES AND POLICIES,
HYDROGEN PRODUCTION. AND IT'S
NOT GOING TO BE COMPETITIVE WITH
FOSSIL FUELS FOR A SIGNIFICANT
PERIOD OF TIME. AND THE RETURN
WE GET ON THAT IS THE CLIMATE
BENEFITS, THE ENVIRONMENTAL
BENEFITS, BUT IT WILL EVENTUALLY
GET THERE. AND THE DÍAS HYDROGEN
HUBS IS ONE SUCH EFFORT TO
INFUSE SOME FUNDS TO DO IT. SO
THE STATE SHOULD ALSO FOLLOW
THAT MODEL. SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S
A LOT FOR US TO DIG INTO THERE,
THIS HEARING IN AND OF ITSELF.
THANK YOU, MR. IS ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF THIS
HEARING, WHICH IS WHY I'VE TRIED
TO TIME IT FOR SORT OF IN THE
MIDDLE, OF THIS, I WANT TO
EMPHASIZE A FEW THINGS. ONE,
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO BE ABLE
TO HAVE ALL OF THE STAKEHOLDERS
AT THE TABLE HAVE EVERYBODY FEEL
SAFE COMING TO BE AT THE TABLE
AND SAFE OFFERING THEIR INPUT.
SO I WOULD LIKE ALL OF US TO
WALK THAT DELICATE LINE OF NOT
ATTACKING ANYBODY THAT'S HERE,
BUT INSTEAD TRY TO CAPTURE THAT
SPIRIT THAT I TALKED ABOUT AT
THE BEGINNING, WHICH IS WE'RE
ALL IN IT. WE'VE ALL GOT TO
FIGURE THIS OUT TOGETHER, AND
THERE AREN'T GOOD GUYS AND BAD
GUYS OR GOOD WOMEN AND BAD
WOMEN, BUT JUST IT'S JUST A
FACT. WE CERTAINLY RECOGNIZE AS
THAT FIRST MOVERS IN ANY MARKET
HAVE A TEMPORARY MONOPOLISTIC
ADVANTAGE, AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN
THEY'RE A MONOPOLY. THAT MEANS,
I MEAN, THAT THERE ARE LONG TERM
GOING TO BE A MONOPOLY. THAT
MEANS THEY'RE FIRST MOVERS AND
THEY GET REWARDED FOR BEING
FIRST MOVERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE
PRICING POWER. WHEN THAT
HAPPENS, THE IMPORTANT THING IS
TO MAKE SURE THAT ULTIMATELY WE
HAVE COMPETITIVE MARKETS, AS WE
GO FORWARD AND THE EXAMPLE THAT
WE HAVE HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A
FIRST MOVER WHO HAS MOVED AND
THEREFORE HAS HAS THE ABILITY TO
HAVE MORE PRICING POWER. AND IF
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
HAVE OTHER MOVERS AND AS YOU
TALKED ABOUT, TRY TO AS RAPIDLY
AS WE CAN INCREASE THE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE PRODUCING. AND TO DO THAT
IN A WAY TO MATCH WITH MISS
MURPHY'S COMMENT THAT WE'RE
MEETING OUR LONG TERM GOALS AND
NOT JUST SOME SHORT TERM FIX
THAT THE COMPLICATES US TRYING
TO GET TO OUR LONG TERM GOALS.
THAT'S NOT AN EASY TASK TO TRY
TO FIGURE OUT THAT PATH, AND
THAT'S WHY I'M GLAD THAT THE
ASSEMBLY MEMBERS HERE, SHE'S
GOING TO DO THE COMPLICATED
STUFF AS WE AS WE GO FORWARD.
BUT IT'S NOT AN EASY TASK. AND
SO I JUST WOULD LIKE US WE'RE
GOING TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, MORE OF
THESE MEETINGS BECAUSE IT IS
SUCH A RICH TOPIC AND A
COMPLICATED TOPIC. SO IF WE'LL
ALL BE TRY TO BE RESPECTFUL AS
AS WE TRY TO DO THAT, WE WILL
APPRECIATE IT. BUT I WANT TO
DIVE FARTHER INTO THIS. HOW DO
WE SORT THIS QUESTION OUT? YOU
KNOW, IS PART OF THE ISSUE? HOW
DO WE GET THE BENEFITS OF A
COMPETITIVE MARKET? WHAT WE'VE
DONE BASICALLY WITH NATURAL GAS
IS WE HAVE CREATED MONOPOLIES,
AND THEN WE HAVE REGULATED THEM
PRICE WISE, BECAUSE OTHERWISE
THE MONOPOLY IN THE LONG RUN
WOULD HAVE TOO MUCH PRICING
POWER. IS THAT WHERE HYDROGEN
NEEDS TO GO, OR IS HYDROGEN
GOING TO BE A MARKET WHERE WE
CAN THE INFRASTRUCTURE COST ARE
LOW ENOUGH THAT ENOUGH PEOPLE
THAT THEY DON'T CREATE BARRIERS
TO ENTRY, BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF
THE WAYS MONOPOLIES GET STARTED,
IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS ARE
SO HIGH THAT ONLY ONE PERSON CAN
GET IN. COULD YOU ALL OF YOU OR
ANY OF YOU TRY TO ELABORATE ON
THAT AND I'LL APPRECIATE MR.
CONLEY AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE
WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BEING
HERE. THERE WAS SOME RISK,
RIGHT, IN TERMS OF THIS ISSUE
SPECIFICALLY COMING UP. AND YOU
WERE COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO COME.
SO THANK YOU AND YOUR COMPANY
FOR HELPING US HEAR YOUR
INSIGHTS. AND I, I'M BEGINNING
TO REGRET SITTING AT THE FRONT
OF THE CLASS, YOU KNOW, THE
ECONOMIC REGULATION, WE DON'T
BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY. AND
REALLY, THE BACKBONE
UNDERPINNING THAT IS WE DON'T
BELIEVE THAT HYDROGEN IS A BROAD
SOLUTION. IT'S A IT'S A SPECIFIC
TOOL, AND ADDS SPECIFIC VALUE IN
CERTAIN AREAS. RIGHT. IF YOU
THINK ABOUT DOMESTIC GOING
ELECTRICAL, MUCH BETTER TO
GENERATE ELECTRICITY ON A BULK
SCALE, WHETHER THAT'S WIND OR
SOLAR, THAN IT IS TO GENERATE IT
ON A LOCAL SCALE IN A COMMUNITY
OR A HOUSE. WE SEE HYDROGEN
ADDING THE MAXIMUM VALUE IN IN
NICHE AREAS. THIS HEAVY INDUSTRY
AND HEAVY TRANSPORTATION NOT
BROAD BASED. AND IN THAT KIND OF
ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU'RE, YOU'RE
NOT NECESSARILY DEALING WITH AN
INDIVIDUAL CONSUMER, YOU HAVE A
COMPETITIVE ARRANGEMENT.
SOMEBODY WANTS TO DECARBONIZE,
THEY'RE GOING TO GO OUT FOR BID
TO DECARBONIZE. IF THE PRICE IS
TOO HIGH, OTHER PEOPLE WILL COME
IN AND WE HAVE A COMPETITIVE
ENVIRONMENT IN THE NICHE AREAS
WHERE HYDROGEN ADDS THE MOST
VALUE. DO YOU THINK THOSE NICHE
AREAS HAVE LOW ENOUGH
INFRASTRUCTURE, INITIAL
INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS THAT THAT
THERE WILL BE ROOM FOR
COMPETITORS TO COME IN? YEAH,
THERE ARE OTHER. WE HAVE
COMPETITORS IN THE LA BASIN
TODAY. THERE ARE OTHER
INDUSTRIAL GAS COMPANIES THAT
MAKE HYDROGEN IN THE LA BASIN.
OTHER OPINIONS ON THAT. MR.
NAVIN YEAH. IF I IF I MAY, I
THINK THE PROMISE OF HYDROGEN,
CERTAINLY AS AN ENERGY CARRIER
AND AS DOCTOR RAJU MENTIONED, AS
A DISPLACEMENT FOR TRADITIONAL
FOSSIL FUELS, WHETHER THEY BE
GAS OR LIQUID PETROLEUM IS
IMMENSE, TODAY IN IN CALIFORNIA,
WE USE A VERY DIFFERENT AMOUNT
OF ELECTRICITY ON AN AVERAGE
FEBRUARY DAY THAN WE SAY DO IN
AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER. AND IT IS
PRECISELY THAT, IMBALANCE OF THE
SUPPLY OF RENEWABLE ENERGY,
ELECTRICITY IN THIS CASE, AND
THE DEMAND FOR ELECTRICITY OR
RENEWABLES THAT CAN BE SOLVED
USING HYDROGEN. SO I AGREE,
WITH, WITH THE GENTLEMAN FROM
AIR PRODUCTS THAT THERE ARE
SIGNIFICANT AREAS WHERE A
DECARBONIZATION COULD TAKE PLACE
IN THE SHORT TERM AROUND
VEHICLES. HOWEVER, THE ABILITY
TO ARBITRAGE TO, TO, TO SPREAD
THE USE IN A WAY THAT ALLOWS FOR
THE MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY OF THE
ENERGY SYSTEM BETWEEN
TRANSPORTATION, MANUFACTURING,
HIGH HEAT MANUFACTURING JOBS,
WHICH ARE CRITICAL TO JOBS,
GROWTH AND PRESERVATION IN
CALIFORNIA. AND THE IDEA OF
DISPLACING TRADITIONAL FOSSIL
FUELS AND DISPATCHABLE
GENERATION. WE BELIEVE THAT IS
KEY. WE BELIEVE THAT REQUIRES A
PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE NETWORK
THAT ALLOWS FOR, JUST FAIR AND
OPEN, RATES, AND AS A MATTER OF
LAW, THAT IS A ROLE THAT HAS
BEEN TRADITIONALLY PLAYED BY
UTILITIES. COULD YOU JUST WHAT
IS YOUR INITIAL REACTION TO THAT
? I MY, MY INITIAL REACTION IS
IT'S THERE'S A VERY, VERY LONG
TERM KIND OF VIEW THERE.
BLENDING, OR CONVERTING THE
EXISTING SYSTEM TO, TO NATURAL
GAS HAS ENORMOUS COMPLICATIONS
VERSUS BUILDING FROM SCRATCH.
THERE IS NO REGULATORY FRAMEWORK
FOR THE SAFETY OF BLENDING,
THERE IS A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK
TODAY FOR HYDROGEN PIPELINES.
IT'S COVERED BY PHMSA. IT'S IN
PLACE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
HURDLES, THE ENGINEERING AND THE
AMOUNT OF WORK THAT IT WOULD
TAKE TO BE ABLE TO SAFELY BLEND
INTO THE NATURAL GAS SYSTEM, YOU
LOOK AT ALL THAT COSTS BORNE BY
THE RATEPAYERS, FOR WHAT IS A
VERY, VERY BROAD USAGE. I DON'T
THINK THAT MAKES ANY SENSE AT
ALL. THE, THE, THE USAGE WE
BELIEVE IS A BIT MORE SURGICAL.
GO AHEAD, CHAIR. YEAH. THANK
YOU. I DO BELIEVE I NEED TO
RESPOND TO AT LEAST SOME OF
THAT. THAT'S THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT
WE'RE DOING. THANK YOU, SO I
THINK THE WITNESS SUGGESTED THAT
THERE IS NO REGULATORY FRAMEWORK
THAT EXISTS FOR BLENDING, THAT
WOULD SUGGEST THEN THAT THE
STATE OF HAWAII IS NOT EXISTING
IN A, IN A IN A REGULATED MANNER
IN THE DELIVERY OF A THEIR
CURRENT GAS SYSTEM. WHAT IS WHAT
IS A WISE BLENDING PERCENTAGE?
IT IS BETWEEN 12 AND 15%
HYDROGEN. GREAT. THANK YOU. AND
AS SUCH, THAT SYSTEM IS
CONSTRUCTED LARGELY, IF NOT
ABSOLUTE, CERTAINLY SIMILAR TO
SYSTEMS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
SO THERE IS A REGULATORY
FRAMEWORK THAT EXISTS. IT DOES
EXIST TODAY. IT EXISTS AT A
FEDERAL LEVEL, IN IN TERMS OF
NATURAL AND MANUFACTURED GAS,
THOSE ARE THE TERMS THAT ARE
USED AT A FEDERAL LEVEL. AND
WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST, AT LEAST
IN PART, IS THAT THE WORK BY
DOCTOR RADJOU AND OTHERS HAVE
SUGGESTED THAT THE COSTS ARE
QUITE MANAGEABLE AND MODERATE IN
IN USING THE EXISTING NATURAL
GAS SYSTEM THAT THE RATEPAYERS
HAVE LARGELY PAID FOR, THEY'VE
LARGELY PAID FOR THOSE PIPES
THAT EXIST IN THE GROUND AND
THEREFORE IT PROVIDES AN EARLY
OPPORTUNITY FOR OFFTAKE. HAPPY
TO HAVE BOTH OF YOU CONTINUE
THIS, BUT I'D LIKE TO HAVE THE
OTHER FIVE OF YOU GIVE US YOUR
INITIAL REACTION TO THIS
DISAGREEMENT THAT THAT WE HAVE
HERE FROM THESE TWO. MR. KERR.
YES, THANK YOU. CHAIR, YEAH, I
WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, A BLENDED
SYSTEM IS UNDER THE CURRENT
REGULATORY STRUCTURE, BUT I
THINK THE POINT IS THAT THERE'S
NOTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT, THE
BLENDED PRODUCT, THERE'S NO, YOU
KNOW, UNIQUE PART OF THAT
REGULATORY STRUCTURE, DEALING
WITH THE UNIQUE RISKS OF ADDING
HYDROGEN TO THAT SYSTEM, I, I
WOULD, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, I
THINK EVERY STAKEHOLDERS GOAL IS
TO HAVE ZERO PIPELINE INCIDENTS,
AND WE ARE NOT THERE. AND ONE
THING THAT WE ARE SEEING ON THE
NATURAL GAS SIDE IS THERE STILL
REMAINS AS, A FAILURES THAT ARE
HAPPENING FROM PIECES OF THEIR
SYSTEM THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE
KNOWN WAS THERE. AND IT WASN'T,
THERE WAS A FAILURE LAST YEAR AT
A CHOCOLATE FACTORY IN
PENNSYLVANIA, FROM AN ADELAIDE,
SECTION OF PIPE THAT, OPERATORS
HAVE KNOWN FOR DECADES HAVE
CAUSED THIS EXACT PROBLEM. AND
SO I JUST BRING THAT UP AS, IF
WE'RE GOING TO, PROMOTE THIS OR
ALLOW THIS, YOU NEED TO TRUST
THAT OPERATORS KNOW THEIR SYSTEM
WELL ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT EVERY
SINGLE PIECE IN THAT SYSTEM THAT
WAS BUILT FOR METHANE IS ABLE TO
HANDLE A HYDROGEN BLEND. AND I
DON'T THINK THAT'S BEEN PROVEN
YET. ANYBODY ELSE? MR. YEAH, I
WOULD I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON
A REAL FUNDAMENTAL WITH ALL DUE
RESPECT, FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENT
APPROACH TO THE WHOLE HYDROGEN
QUESTION THAN WHAT WE JUST
HEARD. I DON'T SEE IT AS A
SURGICAL APPLICATION. IN FACT,
WITH THE NUMBER OF ELECTRIC
VEHICLES, THIS THIS STATE IS
GOING TO PUT ON THE ROAD AND THE
INCREASED DEMAND OF AIR
CONDITIONING, WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE INCREASING BLACKOUTS. IF WE
DON'T HAVE A SUPPLEMENTAL WAY TO
MOVE CARS, TRUCKS AND BUSSES AND
LOCOMOTIVES. AND SO WE HAVE TO
GO INTO HYDROGEN, WHICH MEANS
WIDE DISTRIBUTION NETWORK, WHICH
MEANS PIPELINES AS WELL AS
BECAUSE REMEMBER MY COMPANY WILL
DO EITHER PIPELINE OR CRYOGENIC
HYDROGEN. SO I'M NOT I'M NOT
AGAINST EITHER ONE. BUT WE'RE
GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A
COMPOSITE PLAN, AS YOU KNOW,
CHAIRMAN, BECAUSE YOU'VE SEEN
THE VIDEO. SO THE PROPOSAL THAT
WAS PUT UP BY THE COMMISSIONER
FROM CALTRANS AND THE CALIFORNIA
AIR RESOURCES BOARD WAS TO
BASICALLY PUT A TRENCH WITH A
PIPE, A HYDROGEN PIPE, ALONG ALL
THE FREEWAYS IN CALIFORNIA. AND
TO DO THAT IN A WAY THAT WAS SO
ECONOMIC, IT COULD BE ACTUALLY
LESS EXPENSIVE THAN BUILDING NEW
INFRASTRUCTURE ON THE ELECTRICAL
GRID. SO WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO
DO IS LOOK AT THIS WITH A VERY
NEW EYE, NOT, NOT NOT HOW DOES
IT LOOK LIKE THE PAST? AND CAN
WE TWEAK IT INTO THE FUTURE? SO
WHEN SOMEONE LIKE EDF PUTS UP
THAT IT'S TOO DANGEROUS TO NOT
CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT, WHY WOULDN'T WE MAKE
THAT AN ABSOLUTE CONDITION? NO
LEAKAGE? WHY WOULDN'T WE SAY
SAFETY IS THE NUMBER ONE
CRITERION? WE AGREE WITH THESE
GUYS. I THINK THAT WHAT WE
SHOULD DO IS MAKE SURE THAT'S
THE TOP PRIORITY, AND THE STATE
WOULD HAVE IT. LAST BUT NOT
LEAST, IF YOU USE HYDROGEN
SURGICALLY, YOU WILL NEVER
DEVELOP A MASS MARKET THAT WILL
BRING THE PRICES DOWN TO WHERE
IT BECOMES A TRUE COMPETITOR.
AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW
IMPORTANT THAT IS, THE NEW RULES
THAT TOOK EFFECT, WHICH
BASICALLY ARE PUTTING NGUYEN OUT
OF BUSINESS, RIGHT? SO SOLAR
GONE UP DRAMATICALLY THIS YEAR.
NATIONWIDE WIND HAS DROPPED
PRECIPITOUSLY. WHY? THE THREE
PILLARS? STANDARD CHOKED IT OFF.
SO YOU CAN'T ECONOMICALLY MAKE
HYDROGEN VERY EASILY. AND AS YOU
KNOW, YOU CAN'T GET TAX CREDITS
FOR BURNING WOOD. I CAN GO
THROUGH THE LIST OF OTHER THINGS
YOU CAN'T DO TO MAKE HYDROGEN,
WHERE YOU END UP WITH EXTREMELY
EXPENSIVE HYDROGEN IF YOU DON'T
MAKE IT FROM METHANE, AND IF YOU
DO THAT, YOU'RE BASICALLY
KEEPING THE WHOLE SYSTEM IN
PLACE. SO WE REALLY RETHINK IT
FROM A BASE LEVEL. THANK YOU.
THE OTHER THREE, MR. MR. RAHU SO
I JUST WANT TO TOUCH ON THE
REGULATORY, FRAMEWORK QUICKLY.
BEFORE I GO BACK TO YOUR
ORIGINAL QUESTION ABOUT MONOPOLY
, SO I RIGHT NOW, CALIFORNIA
DOES NOT HAVE AN INJECTION
STANDARD, MEANING YOU CANNOT
INJECT HYDROGEN INTO THE NATURAL
GAS PIPELINE. AND AS FAR AS I
THE WAY I UNDERSTAND THE YOU
CAN'T DO THAT ANYWHERE, HAWAII
IS A VERY UNIQUE EXAMPLE BECAUSE
THEY'RE AN ISLAND, THEY IMPORT,
LPG AND THEN THEY REFINE IT. SO
THEY DON'T REALLY INJECT
HYDROGEN, BUT THEY HAVE HYDROGEN
AS PART OF THE NATURAL GAS THAT
THEY PRODUCE. BUT ALSO HAWAII'S
INFRASTRUCTURE IS MUCH, MUCH
SMALLER ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE
SMALLER THAN CALIFORNIA'S. AND
IT DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE
DIFFERENT PARAMETERS THAT WE
WOULD BE DEALING WITH IN TERMS
OF THE WEATHER, PRESSURE,
CYCLING, ALL OF THOSE. SO WE
DEFINITELY NEED TO DEVELOP A
MORE ROBUST REGULATORY
FRAMEWORK. BUT THERE IS WE'RE
NOT GOING TO BE STARTING FROM
SCRATCH. THERE'S FEDERAL
REGULATION ON HOW TO HANDLE
HYDROGEN. THE STATE REGULATION
ON HOW TO HANDLE HYDROGEN. AND
INDUSTRIES HAVE DONE THAT FOR
DECADES. SO GOING BACK TO THE
MONOPOLY, YOU KNOW, BUILDING
HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE AND
OPERATING AND MAINTAINING IT IS
NOT A TRIVIAL TASK. SO IT BY ITS
VERY NATURE, IT'S GOING TO BE
RESTRICTED TO A FEW PLAYERS WHO
HAVE BOTH THE FINANCIAL
RESOURCES, BUT ALSO THE
TECHNOLOGICAL SKILLS AND THE
EXPERTISE. BUT THAT DOES NOT
MEAN THAT IT HAS TO BE ONE
ENTITY. IT CAN BE MULTIPLE
ENTITIES THAT PRODUCE HYDROGEN,
A FEW ENTITIES THAT OPERATE AND
MAINTAIN THE PIPELINES AND OTHER
MODES OF TRANSPORTATION, AND
THEN THE END USER EQUIPMENT. WE
NEED TO ENGAGE WITH THE
MANUFACTURERS TO MAKE SURE THAT
THE DEVICES CAN HANDLE HYDROGEN
AND ALSO ADDRESS THE EMISSIONS
ISSUE THAT ARENDT POINTED OUT
EARLIER. HYDROGEN, WHEN
COMBUSTED WITHOUT AFTER
TREATMENT, TENDS TO PRODUCE VERY
HIGH LEVELS OF NOX. SO ALL OF
THOSE NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. BUT
I THINK IT'S VERY DOABLE. DO YOU
JUST FROM YOUR, IF I COULD, ONE
SECOND, I'LL JUST LET ME FOLLOW
UP THIS QUESTION WITH HIM AND
I'LL BE RIGHT WITH YOU, MISS
MURPHY. AND THAT IS, YOU YOU
TALKED ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCERS
AND THEN HYDROGEN TRANSPORTERS.
HYDROGEN. DO YOU DO YOU SEE, A
BENEFITS OR A BEND TOWARDS,
MULTIPLE TRANSPORTERS OF IT AND
MULTIPLE PRODUCERS OR MULTIPLE
PRODUCERS AND, A MONOPOLISTIC
TRANSPORTER OF IT, I THINK IS
THE IS ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL
QUESTIONS WHICH DO YOU FROM YOUR
, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE? I THINK
DEFINITELY MULTIPLE PRODUCERS
BECAUSE THERE'S HYDROGEN
PRODUCTION SHOULD BE
DECENTRALIZED WITH LOTS OF AND
WE'RE GOING TO BE PRIMARILY
DOING IT BY SPLITTING WATER
THROUGH ELECTROLYSIS AND LOTS OF
IN TERMS OF THE TRANSPORTATION,
IT SHOULD BE NOT AS MANY, BUT AT
LEAST A FEW, PERHAPS SIMILAR TO
THE NATURAL GAS SYSTEM WE HAVE.
BUT WITH A VERY ROBUST STATE
OVERSIGHT AND REGULATORY
FRAMEWORK. THANK YOU, MISS
MURPHY. YOU'RE ON. YOU'RE ON
NOW, MISS MURPHY. THANK YOU,
THANK YOU. THANKS, CHAIR, YEAH,
JUST A COUPLE POINTS ON THIS
DISCUSSION. I THINK AS A
STARTING POINT, FROM MY
PERSPECTIVE OF HYDROGEN PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING TO BE
VERY DIFFERENT AND MUCH MORE
LIMITED THAN THE CURRENT
OPERATIONAL NETWORK OF NATURAL
GAS PIPELINES THAT WE HAVE IN
THE UNITED STATES AND IN
CALIFORNIA. WE DON'T KNOW AT
THIS POINT THE EXTENT OF
PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT
WILL BE NEEDED FOR HYDROGEN IN A
FULLY DECARBONIZED ECONOMY,
WE'VE SEEN SOME ANALYZES AS I
THINK THERE'S THE PRINCETON NET
ZERO STUDY TAKES A STAB AT AT AN
ANALYSIS OF HYDROGEN PIPELINE
MILEAGE. I ALSO BELIEVE THERE'S
A NORTH AMERICAN HYDROGEN
BACKBONE INITIATIVE THAT'S
GETTING UNDERWAY, SO THERE'S
SOME EFFORTS TO THINK ABOUT THAT
, BUT I THINK A COUPLE POINTS
ARE THAT ONE, HYDROGEN
DEPLOYMENT WE KNOW SHOULD BE
FOCUSED ON THOSE KEY HARD TO
ELECTRIFY SECTORS SUCH AS HIGH
HEAT INDUSTRIAL PROCESSES. THOSE
USERS, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW WHERE
THEY ARE OR WE CAN EVALUATE
WHERE THEY ARE. AND DODD
HYDROGEN TRANSPORTATION IDEALLY
WOULD BE MINIMIZED. RIGHT.
BECAUSE IT TAKES A LOT OF ENERGY
TO TRANSPORT HYDROGEN. IT TAKES
MORE COMPRESSION CAPACITY THAN
NATURAL GAS. AND BECAUSE OF THE
LOSSES THAT CAN OCCUR ALONG THE
PIPELINE, BOTH FROM LEAKAGE OR
FROM OPERATIONAL RELEASES LIKE
BLOW DOWNS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO
CLIMATE, THE LESS DISTANCE WE
NEED TO TRANSPORT HYDROGEN, THE
BETTER. AND SO IF IT CAN BE
PRODUCED CLOSE TO WHERE IT'S
UTILIZED, THAT'S EXCELLENT, IF
THERE'S A NEED TO TRANSPORT IT
RIGHT. THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO
THINK ABOUT THE PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S NEEDED,
BUT I THINK THERE ARE
CONSIDERATIONS SUCH AS IF WE ARE
ABLE TO LOOK AT THE CONVERSION
OF CURRENT NATURAL GAS PIPELINES
TO HYDROGEN TRANSPORTATION.
THERE'S SOME POTENTIAL BENEFITS
THERE IN TERMS OF COST. THE
ESTIMATES I'VE SEEN ARE THAT THE
CONVERSION OF A NATURAL GAS
PIPELINE TO TRANSPORT HYDROGEN
MIGHT BE 30 TO 40, OF THE
INVESTMENT OF COMPARED TO
BUILDING A NEW PIPELINE. SO
THERE'S THE POTENTIAL FOR COST
SAVINGS THERE. BUT IT'S
OBVIOUSLY ESSENTIAL THAT ANY
CONVERSION BE DONE IN A WAY
THAT'S REALLY SAFE, IN A WAY
THAT CAREFULLY EVALUATES THE
SPECIFIC PROPERTIES OF HYDROGEN
COMPARED WITH NATURAL GAS
TRANSPORT. SO THAT CONVERSION
NEEDS TO BE DONE IN A
RESPONSIBLE MANNER. I THINK THAT
KIND OF CIRCLES BACK A LITTLE
BIT TO THE BLENDING DISCUSSION,
WHERE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, I'VE
TALKED ALREADY ABOUT WHY IT
REALLY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO BE
BLENDING FOR RESIDENTIAL OR
COMMERCIAL BUILDING CUSTOMERS,
WHERE ELECTRIFICATION IS THE
PREFERABLE PATHWAY FOR
DECARBONIZATION. I THINK FOR
INDUSTRIAL CUSTOMERS OR
POTENTIALLY POWER GENERATION FOR
THAT CLEAN FERM, POWER THAT THAT
NEIL FROM SOCAL WAS TALKING
ABOUT EARLIER IN THE DISCUSSION.
YOU KNOW, TO ME, IF YOU'RE
THINKING ABOUT BLENDING, THERE
ARE INVESTMENTS THAT ARE
REQUIRED JUST IN ORDER TO BLEND
RIGHT TO ENSURE THAT THE
PIPELINE INTEGRITY IS GOING TO
BE MAINTAINED AND TO ENSURE THAT
THE END USER IS ABLE TO UTILIZE
HYDROGEN, EITHER ON THEIR
INDUSTRIAL EQUIPMENT OR THEIR
POWER GENERATION EQUIPMENT. AND
SO IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THOSE
INVESTMENTS, WHY NOT THINK ABOUT
THOSE INVESTMENTS FOR CONVERSION
TO FULL DEDICATED HYDROGEN USE
AND FULL DECARBONIZATION, RATHER
THAN BLENDING AS SORT OF A
STEPPING STONE THAT CAN
POTENTIALLY JUST EXTEND YOUR USE
OF THE FOSSIL FUEL NATURAL GAS.
WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO AIM FOR
DECARBONIZATION, SO LOTS TO
CONSIDER, BUT THANKS. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH, EITHER OF THE EITHER
ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO WANT TO
WEIGH IN ON THIS? GO AHEAD. MR.
CARMEN. YOU LOOK LIKE YOU'RE,
ONE THING CAME UP A LITTLE BIT
BEFORE ON THE DISCUSSION OF, YOU
KNOW, REGULATING AS A UTILITY.
WE DON'T HAVE A STRONG OPINION
ON THAT, BEING A SAFETY
ORGANIZATION. THÀNH. BUT ONE
THING I DO WANT TO MENTION IS
SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN
FRUSTRATING TO US AS SAFETY
ADVOCATES IS THAT THE CURRENT,
INCENTIVE STRUCTURE AROUND
UTILITIES IS THERE'S A FINANCIAL
INCENTIVE AROUND BUILDING NEW
INFRASTRUCTURE, AND THERE ISN'T
THAT SAME INCENTIVE AROUND
MAINTAINING THE EXISTING
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR SAFETY. AND I
THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO
FIX THAT WRONG. AS WE LOOK TO
HYDROGEN. THAT'S AN INTERESTING
INSIGHT. RIGHT AS WE MOVE
FORWARD, GO AHEAD, YEAH. AGAIN
CHAIR. THANK YOU. WHAT I WOULD
SUGGEST IS THAT THE BLENDING OF
HYDROGEN INTO NATURAL GAS
PIPELINES EXISTS BEYOND HAWAII.
THAT EXISTS IN NORTH AMERICA, IN
CANADA, IN AT LEAST TWO
LOCATIONS. IT ALSO EXISTS IN NEW
JERSEY. AND SO THERE ARE OTHER,
VENUES OTHER THAN HAWAII, WHICH
HAS A VERY AS THE PROFESSOR
NOTED, IS A VERY DISTINCT,
SYSTEM, BASED ON THE NATURE OF
THE SUPPLY, WHAT I'D SUGGEST IS,
THAT WE NOT PREMATURELY GIVE UP
TOOLS THAT COULD ACCELERATE THE
ADOPTION OF HYDROGEN, INCLUDING
BLENDING. WERE WE TO HAVE PUT
ALL OF OUR RETIREMENT INTO KODAK
STOCK 30 YEARS AGO OR 40 YEARS
AGO, WE MIGHT NOT BE ESPECIALLY
HAPPY. SO BEFORE WE INVEST ALL
OF OUR, EFFORTS IN ONE
PARTICULAR PATHWAY, OTHER EITHER
ELECTRIFICATION OR OR
ELIMINATING THE IDEA OF, OF
BLENDING, I'D SUGGEST THAT WE
LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES. THANK
YOU. ANYBODY ELSE ON THIS TOPIC?
I'M GOING TO I'M GOING TO DIVE
INTO THIS A LITTLE BIT. COME AT
IT A DIFFERENT WAY. THERE'S
ALMOST UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT THAT
WE SHOULD GO TO, HYDROGEN
HIGHWAYS FOR SEMI TRAILERS TO BE
ABLE TO, TRANSPORT, DECREASE THE
POLLUTION AT THE PORTS HAVE
PEOPLE BE ABLE TO HAVE HYDROGEN
TRUCKS AND I'M NOT. SO IF ANY OF
YOU THINK THAT'S, THAT'S NOT A
PART OF THE FUTURE, SPEAK UP.
BUT I THINK THERE'S ALMOST
UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT. SO MY
QUESTION IS LET'S JUST TAKE THAT
. SOME PEOPLE WOULD CALL THAT A
NICHE MARKET OR A NICHE PART OF
THE MARKET. SOME PEOPLE WOULD
SAY THAT'S ACTUALLY PART OF A
MAJOR WHOLESALE DELIVERY OF
HYDROGEN. IS THAT THAT'LL BE
INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT YOUR
PERSPECTIVE IS OF THAT. BUT IF
WE WANT TO EVERY 50 MILES, MAKE
SURE THERE IS A HYDROGEN STATION
FOR LARGE VEHICLES TO BE ABLE
TO, TO REFUEL THAT, IS THE BEST
WAY TO GET THAT HYDROGEN THERE
BY PIPELINE. I THINK MOST PEOPLE
WOULD SAY YES. THE BEST WAY TO
DO THAT, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A
STEADY SUPPLY AND BE ABLE TO
COUNT ON, ETC, BUT THAT'S NOT
THE WAY WE GET IT THERE. THAT'S
NOT THE WAY WE GET GASOLINE AND
DIESEL. THERE NOW. SO I'M OPEN
TO HEARING. NO, THAT'S NOT THE
BEST WAY TO DO THAT. YOU DON'T
BUILD A PIPELINE TO EVERY, YOU
KNOW, 50. BUT IF YOU DO TO, DO
THAT, IF YOU DECIDE YOU'RE GOING
TO CONNECT ALL OF THESE BY
PIPELINE, THEN THE WHOLE ISSUE
OF RIGHT OF WAY AND WHO HAS THE
RIGHT OF WAY AND, AND ALL OF
THAT BECOMES A VERY SIGNIFICANT
ISSUE. AND IF WE HAVE MULTIPLE
TRANSPORTERS OF THE OF THAT,
THAT IT SEEMS DUPLICATIVE IN
TERMS OF COST TO, TO DIG THE
TRENCH AND TO DIG ANOTHER
TRENCH, CLOSE TO IT AND TO TRY
TO LINK THESE UP, HELP ME WITH
WHAT YOUR VISION WOULD BE ON
THAT FAIRLY NARROW PART OF HOW
DO WE HANDLE A STEP THAT I THINK
EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE
BOARD SAYS FOR THAT'S THAT'S A
HARD TO DECARBONIZE INDUSTRY AND
THAT IS HEAVY, HEAVY VEHICLE
EQUIPMENT MOVEMENT THAT'S NOT AS
HARD AS STEEL AND SOME OTHERS.
BUT BUT IT CERTAINLY THAT'S WHAT
MAKES IT SORT OF A GOOD TEST
CASE FOR US. WHAT'S YOUR WHAT
ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT
COMPETITION VERSUS MONOPOLISTIC
APPROACH, AND WHEN I SAY
MONOPOLISTIC APPROACH, ONE
PROVIDER OF THAT PIPELINE VERSUS
MULTIPLES, ETC, AND ANYBODY CAN
START ON THIS ONE. EVEN MISS
MURPHY, IF SHE WANTS. RIGHT
ANYBODY HAPPY TO START. ALL
RIGHT. GREAT GIVES EVERYBODY
ELSE TIME TO EVERYBODY ELSE.
TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT. RIGHT.
YEAH. SO YOU KNOW I'M NOT SURE
IF I'M PREPARED TO SORT OF MAKE
A FIRM RECOMMENDATION ON,
COMPETITION VERSUS A REGULATED
MONOPOLY AT THIS POINT. THAT'S A
REALLY IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION.
I DID WANT TO COMMENT, THOUGH,
ON, YOU KNOW, I THINK JUST THE
BASELINE QUESTION OF, OF WHEN IS
A PIPELINE APPROPRIATE. AND FROM
MY PERSPECTIVE, WHEN THERE IS A
LONG TERM, IDENTIFIED DEMAND FOR
THE FUEL FOR HYDROGEN IN THIS
CASE, THAT'S, YOU KNOW,
SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO, TO MERIT
PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE THERE,
THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, A
PIPELINE IS AN APPROPRIATE
SOLUTION TO SATISFY THAT DEMAND.
AND TO TRANSPORT THE FUEL, TO
THE, THE END USER, THERE ARE
REALLY IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION
WHEN THINKING ABOUT SITING AND
PERMITTING FOR PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE. ONE IS EQUITY,
THERE'S BEEN PEER REVIEWED
ANALYSIS OF THE TRANSMISSION
PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE
UNITED STATES, FINDING THAT
THOSE INTERSTATE TRANSMISSION
PIPELINES TEND TO BE LOCATED IN
MORE SOCIALLY VULNERABLE
COMMUNITIES. USING THE CDC
SOCIAL VULNERABILITY INDEX. AND
I THINK THAT SHOWS THAT, YOU
KNOW, IN THE PAST, THERE HAS NOT
ALWAYS BEEN THAT CAREFUL
CONSIDERATION OF THE EQUITY
IMPACTS OF INFRASTRUCTURE SITING
AND DEVELOPMENT. AND WE NEED TO
INCORPORATE THAT CONSIDERATION
WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THE
DEVELOPMENT OF NEW
INFRASTRUCTURE. I THINK THAT'S
ALSO REALLY KEY HERE WHEN WE'RE
THINKING ABOUT CAN WE AND WHEN
DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO
POTENTIALLY CONVERT AND
REPURPOSE EXISTING NATURAL GAS
PIPELINES FOR USE AS DEDICATED
HYDROGEN PIPELINES? DO WE NEED
TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND THINK
ABOUT, WELL, HOW WAS THAT
ORIGINAL PIPELINE SITED? WAS IT
DONE IN AN EQUITABLE MANNER AND
OR DO THOSE CONSIDERATIONS NEED
TO BE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE NOW,
AS WE THINK ABOUT WHETHER THAT'S
THE RIGHT SORT OF ROUTING FOR A
HYDROGEN PIPELINE? GREAT. THANK
YOU. MR. NAVIN. YEAH, WE'LL JUST
GO ONE, TWO. AND WHEN YOU PUT
YOUR HAND UP AND I'LL VERY, VERY
BRIEFLY, IF I MAY, I DID WANT TO
POINT OUT THAT OUR ANGELES LINK
PROJECT, THAT IN FACT INCLUDES
EDF AND MANY OTHERS IN ON THIS
TABLE AS PART OF OUR,
STAKEHOLDER ENGAGEMENT PROCESS,
ARE LOOKING AT THE ABILITY TO
REPURPOSE AND REUSE RIGHT OF
WAYS AS A MATTER OF DELIVERING,
HYDROGEN. WHAT I WOULD ALSO
POINT OUT IS THAT THE
INVOLVEMENT OF THOSE COMMUNITY
BASED ORGANIZATIONS IN THE
DISCUSSION IS IMPORTANT BOTH TO
LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF
INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT ALSO THE
BENEFITS IN TERMS OF DELIVERED
AIR QUALITY BY ELIMINATING THE
USE OF DIESEL TRUCKS, AS AN
EXAMPLE. AND LASTLY, I WOULD
POINT OUT THAT, OUR CAPACITY TO
DELIVER HYDROGEN AT SCALE HAS
BEEN DISCUSSED AS NEEDING
PIPELINES. UC DAVIS AS AN AS AN
ENTITY HAS PROVIDED SOME VERY
GOOD WORK ABOUT THE SHORT TERM
USE OF TRUCKING TO SUPPLY
HYDROGEN TO FUELING STATIONS.
BUT THE LONGER TERM NEED FOR
PIPELINE INFRASTRUCTURE. OKAY,
SO TO THE TO THE SPECIFIC POINT
YOU RAISED ABOUT, IF YOU HAD ONE
SINGLE PIPELINE OWNER, WHETHER
IT WAS A PRIVATE OR A UTILITY,
WOULDN'T THAT ALLOW FOR A
HODGEPODGE OF DIFFERENT. AND IT
DOESN'T, BECAUSE WHAT YOU
SPECIFICALLY ARTICULATED WAS
HEAVY DUTY TRUCKS. SO SO A
PIPELINE RUNNING ALONG THE
CORRIDOR THAT THOSE TRUCKS WILL
TAKE, THE STATIONS WILL ALL BE
ALONG THAT CORRIDOR. SO IT'S THE
IDEAL USE FOR A PIPELINE. AND
THERE'S NONE OF THE DRAWBACKS
THAT I CAN SEE. AGAIN, OUR
COMPANY HAS TECHNOLOGY FOR USING
CRYOGENIC. THERE'S A COUPLE OF
FIRMS IN CALIFORNIA FOR
CURRENTLY USING CRYOGENIC. WE'VE
DONE PAPERS ON IT. WE'D BE HAPPY
TO SHARE THEM WITH YOU. CHAIR.
ON THE ECONOMIC TRADE OFFS. BUT
I DO BELIEVE IT'S AN IDEAL
APPLICATION FOR TRUCKS. MR.
CONNELLY HAS HAD HAS YOUR
COMPANY LOOKED AT THAT NICHE
MARKET AND DO YOU HAVE THOUGHTS
ON THAT, I DON'T REALLY HAVE
ANYTHING SUBSTANTIVE TO ADD.
WOULD YOU MIND USING THE
MICROPHONE? YEAH I DON'T REALLY
HAVE ANYTHING SUBSTANTIVE TO ADD
ON THE SUBJECT OF RIGHT OF WAYS.
YOU KNOW, WE OUR PIPELINE SYSTEM
TODAY, WE'VE SUCCESSFULLY
PERMITTED OBTAINED RIGHT OF WAYS
FOR THAT PIPELINE SYSTEM. DO YOU
DO YOU ANTICIPATE, SUPPLYING,
TRUCK STOPS EVERY 15 MILES ON
THE FREEWAY AS A NICHE MARKET?
THAT PRIVATE INDUSTRY MIGHT MOVE
INTO, I'M MORE ON THE PRODUCTION
DISTRIBUTION PIPELINE SIDE. SO
THE LOGISTICS DISTRIBUTION SIDE
IS NOT MY PARTICULAR AREA OF
EXPERTISE. YEAH. HOW ABOUT
GETTING THE HYDROGEN TO THOSE TO
THOSE TRUCK STOPS? YEAH. THERE'S
DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING IT. YOU
CAN DO IT VIA TYPICALLY
TRANSPORTATION OF LIQUID
HYDROGEN, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW,
VERY SIMILAR TO HOW GASOLINE IS
TRANSPORTED TODAY OR PIPELINE.
IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE VOLUME.
DO YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON
THE COST OF TRANSPORTING, LIQUID
HYDROGEN TO A TRUCK STOP IN, YOU
KNOW, AT THE GRAPEVINE VERSUS
DIESEL TO THAT TRUCK STOP ON THE
GRAPEVINE? I DO NOT. OKAY DOES
ANYBODY HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON
THAT? YES, SIR. MR. KHN Ó ON
THAT NOTE, I'M SORRY. OKAY,
GREAT, WELL, BEFORE WE BEFORE WE
JUMP HERE A LITTLE BIT, I WANT
TO INTRODUCE ASSEMBLY MEMBER
GREG HART, WHO IS ALSO ON THE
SELECT COMMITTEE. ASSEMBLY
MEMBER PETRIE-NORRIS JUST LEFT,
SO? SO, YOU'RE FILLING IN,
APPROPRIATELY AND NICELY. WE,
INVITE YOU TO JUMP IN WITH
ANYTHING THAT COMES TO A
QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE, BUT THIS
IS A VERY FREE FORM, ALL OF
THESE GENTLEMEN AND MISS MURPHY
GAVE A FIVE MINUTE INTRODUCTION
IN TERMS OF THEIR THOUGHTS ABOUT
WHERE WE SHOULD GO WITH WHAT,
WHAT SHOULD LEGISLATORS KNOW
ABOUT HYDROGEN PIPELINES AND
THINK ABOUT WITH HYDROGEN
PIPELINES, AS WE MIGHT BE
CONSIDERING LEGISLATION, ETC,
AND SO THAT'S THE BASIC TOPIC.
AND WE'RE JUST TRYING TO DIVE
DOWN INTO SOME ASPECTS OF THAT,
THAT TOPIC. GO AHEAD, MR. CARTER
, YEAH. I WANTED TO BUILD A
LITTLE BIT ON WHAT AARON MURPHY
HAD SHARED ABOUT THAT, ABOUT
SITING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, ONE
OF THE FRUSTRATIONS WE'VE HAD
UNDER THE EXISTING NATURAL GAS
REGULATORY STRUCTURE IS THAT THE
SITING IS HANDLED BY AN ECONOMIC
REGULATOR WITH FERC AND THE
ISSUES THE DOOR CLOSED WITH AN
ECONOMIC REGULATOR. AND YOU SAID
WHO, WHICH IS FERC, THE FEDERAL
ENERGY REGULATOR. SO WHAT'S BEEN
FRUSTRATING ABOUT THAT IS THAT
THINGS LIKE ENVIRONMENTAL
JUSTICE, AS, AS AARON MENTIONED,
HAVE HAVEN'T BEEN TAKEN INTO
CONSIDERATION, BUT ALSO THINGS
LIKE SAFETY HAVEN'T BEEN TAKEN
INTO CONSIDERATION AND PHMSA AS
A SAFETY REGULATOR IS EXPLICITLY
, FORBIDDEN FROM REGULATING THE
LOCATION OR THE SITING OF
PIPELINES. AND THAT LEAVES A
LITTLE BIT OF A GAP AND, AND
HYDROGEN FALLS OUTSIDE OF FERC'S
JURISDICTION. SO THERE'S ANOTHER
UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY HERE TO
INCORPORATE THINGS LIKE SAFETY,
YOU KNOW, THE POSSIBILITY OF GEO
HAZARDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN
THE LOCATION, CHOOSING THE
SAFEST ROUTE POSSIBLE, WITH
PROXIMITY TO PEOPLE AS WELL AS
ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE CONCERNS.
TO WHAT? TO WHAT EXTENT, SHOULD
WE ANTICIPATE THAT THERE WILL BE
PIPELINES, INTERSTATE HYDROGEN
PIPELINES, MOVING HYDROGEN?
LET'S TAKE 2050, YOU KNOW, SO
SOME SOME TIME FROM NOW. WELL,
WE HAVE INTERSTATE EXCLUSIVELY
HYDROGEN PIPELINES AND I ASSUME
BUT I CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG,
THAT THAT THOSE WOULD BE PRETTY
LARGE INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS
THAT PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE
MULTIPLE, COMPETITORS WITH IT.
IT MIGHT BE OPEN ACCESS. BUT
ANYWAY, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS
ABOUT THE INTERSTATE PIPELINE
AND HOW THAT MIGHT AFFECT OR BE
SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF?
CALIFORNIA, AGAIN, CHAIR, WHAT I
WOULD SUGGEST IS IF YOU READ
VERY CAREFULLY THE HYDROGEN HUB,
FUNDING THAT WAS, PUT FORWARD BY
THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, THEIR
EXPLICIT HOPE, I WOULD SAY HOPE
IS THAT OVER TIME, THOSE
HYDROGEN HUBS WOULD CONNECT WITH
EACH OTHER. THAT WAS PART OF THE
APPLICATION. SO I DO BELIEVE
OVER TIME, ONE MIGHT SEE,
INTERCONNECTING THE SYSTEM, SAY
AS AN EXAMPLE, THE, THE ROCKY
MOUNTAINS TO, TO CALIFORNIA.
AND. YEAH, I JUST WANTED TO SAY
THAT THE ARCHES, WHICH WE ARE
ALSO MEMBERS OF WITH THE SOCAL
GAS, HAVE BEEN WE'VE BEEN
SUPPORTIVE OF THE CONNECTION
BETWEEN THE STATES THAT ARE
ALREADY AT PLAY AND THE ANGELS
LINK PROJECT, BECAUSE YOU'RE
ALREADY TALKING ABOUT MULTIPLE
STATES. NOW, IN THAT PARTICULAR
PIPELINE OR LOCATION. AND I
BELIEVE IN TERMS OF IF WE SITE
THE PIPELINES DIRECTLY ADJACENT
TO FREEWAYS AND HIGHWAYS, THE
AMOUNT OF CO2 WE TAKE OUT OF THE
AIR FROM DISADVANTAGED
COMMUNITIES, THEY'RE CURRENTLY
BREATHING THAT LOOK AT THE 710
CORRIDOR. IT'S INHUMAN, AND BY
REPLACING IT WITH A HYDROGEN
PIPELINE THAT DOES NOT LEAK,
WE'RE DOING A TREMENDOUS SERVICE
AND WE'RE PROVIDING AN ECONOMIC
WAY TO REDUCE THE COST OF
HYDROGEN PER KILOGRAM DELIVERED.
ANYBODY ELSE ON THAT TOPIC?
ANYBODY ELSE ON THAT TOPIC, I
THEN HOW ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT'S
BEEN RAISED OF CONTINUOUS
MONITORING IS, IS THAT A
REQUIREMENT AT THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA? SHOULD CONTINUE
SHOULD SHOULD CONSIDER WHICH IS
CONTINUOUS MONITORING. SO THE
SECOND THERE IS A LEAK OR HOW IS
NATURAL GAS MONITORED TODAY. IS
THERE CONTINUOUS MONITORING FOR
NATURAL GAS. WHAT WHAT CAN YOU
TELL US ABOUT THAT? NICE AND
CLOSE WITH THAT TWO PLEASE.
YEAH. THANK YOU, CHAIR BENNETT
I'M HAPPY TO JUMP IN, SOCAL GAS,
SUPPORTS A RIGOROUS MONITORING
AND OVERSIGHT OF, THE HYDROGEN
DEPLOYMENT, SENSORS DO EXIST
TODAY, SOME OF THEM ARE BEING
DEVELOPED BY BY, SENSOR
DEVELOPERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH
SOME OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL
ADVOCATES. WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST
IS THAT ALL NEW LARGE PIPELINES
THAT ARE BEING DEVELOPED BY
SOCAL GAS TODAY ON THE NATURAL
GAS SYSTEM, DO INCLUDE ADVANCED
FIBER OPTIC, PERSISTENT MONITOR
THING FOR THINGS LIKE LEAKS AND
ANOMALIES. AND SO I WOULD I
WOULD SUGGEST THAT A ROBUST,
OVERSIGHT AND MONITORING OF
THOSE PIPELINES WOULD BE
APPROPRIATE. YOU USED THE WORD
PERSISTENT. IS THAT THE SAME AS
CONTINUOUS? YES YES. SYNONYMOUS.
AND JUST VERY QUICKLY, AARON,
YOU WERE TO MY HARD RIGHT. AND
SO SPEAK UP IF YOU WANT TO SAY
SOMETHING. IF YOU RAISE YOUR
HAND, I MAY NOT SEE IT. ALL
RIGHT. SO JUST FEEL FREE TO JUST
SPEAK UP. OKAY. GREAT. CHAIR. I
JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THAT
THE PROBABLY ONE OF THE LARGEST,
NOT THE LARGEST AND CERTAINLY
MOST REPUTABLE SENSOR
MANUFACTURERS RIGHT HERE IN
CALIFORNIA, AND THEY'RE SHIPPING
SENSORS ALL OVER THE WORLD. AND
YES, THEY'RE CONTINUOUS. AND
WHETHER YOU DO IT WITH ONE
TECHNOLOGY OR ANOTHER, IT
DEFINITELY SHOULD BE CONTINUOUS,
AND THEN IN TERMS OF MEASURING
LEAKAGE, IF WE'RE GO, GO AHEAD.
SHE RAISED HER HAND TO SPEAK UP.
RIGHT. GO AHEAD. SORRY. I RAISED
MY HAND. I DIDN'T WANT TO
INTERRUPT, YEAH. WOULD LOVE TO
CHIME IN ON THIS POINT, YOU
KNOW, EDF HAS BEEN GIVING A LOT
OF CAREFUL THOUGHT AND ATTENTION
TO THE CONCERNS AROUND HYDROGEN
EMISSIONS AND HYDROGEN LEAKAGE
FROM INFRASTRUCTURE, INCLUDING
PIPELINES. AND I DID JUST WANT
TO BRIEFLY SHARE SOME
INFORMATION THAT WE'VE
COLLECTED, THINKING ABOUT WHAT
ARE THE EXISTING, HYDROGEN
DETECTION TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE
COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE. AND THEY
DO THERE ARE LIMITATIONS, RIGHT?
THERE ARE COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE
HYDROGEN DETECTION TECHNOLOGIES,
BUT THE CONCENTRATION RANGE, IS
IN IS AT THE PARTS PER MILLION
LEVEL, AND IS REALLY MORE
DESIGNED AND FOCUSED ON SORT OF
A HIGH THRESHOLD THAT PRESENTS
AN IMMINENT SAFETY THREAT, WHICH
IS OBVIOUSLY VERY IMPORTANT TO
BE ABLE TO, TO MEASURE AND
UNDERSTAND. BUT THAT DOESN'T
NECESSARILY CAPTURE LEVELS OF
HYDROGEN LEAKAGE THAT PRESENT AN
ENVIRONMENTAL AND CLIMATE HARM.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, EDF IS WORKING
ON THIS. THE DEPARTMENT OF
ENERGY IS PROVIDING SOME R&D
SUPPORT FOR VARIOUS
STAKEHOLDERS, BUT THERE IS A
REAL URGENT NEED TO DEVELOP MORE
EFFECTIVE, AND NUANCED HYDROGEN
DETECTION TECHNOLOGY, BOTH TO
ENSURE THAT ABILITY TO IDENTIFY
SMALLER LEAKS THAT POSE AN
ENVIRONMENTAL AND CLIMATE HARM,
AND ALSO TO MEASURE THE LEAK
FLOW RATE OF HYDROGEN LEAKS.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S ALSO
BEEN IN DEVELOPMENT, AND WE'VE
REALLY SEEN JUST DRAMATIC
IMPROVEMENT ON THE METHANE SIDE.
AND SO WE'RE HOPEFUL TO SEE
SIMILAR IMPROVEMENT AT ON THE
HYDROGEN DETECTION SIDE. TO YOUR
POINT ABOUT CONTINUOUS
MONITORING, I JUST WANT TO MAYBE
SHARE SOME PERSPECTIVES FROM THE
METHANE METHANE PERSPECTIVE ON
NATURAL GAS PIPELINES THAT I
THINK IS ALSO REALLY APPLICABLE
WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT
HYDROGEN PIPELINES, WHICH IS
THAT WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT
IT'S REALLY A COMBINATION OF
TECHNOLOGIES AND WORK PRACTICES
THAT GETS YOU TO, YOU KNOW, BEST
TRACKING AND UNDERSTANDING LEAKS
AND BEING ABLE TO FIX THEM
PROMPTLY ON A SYSTEM, SO IT'S,
YOU KNOW, ON DISTRIBUTION
SYSTEMS, WE SEE A MIXTURE OF
VEHICLE DRIVING SURVEYS AS WELL
AS WALKING SURVEYS AND EVEN
OCCASIONAL AERIAL FLYOVER
SURVEYS. RIGHT. THAT MIGHT BE
DETECTING METHANE LEAKS AT
DIFFERENT THRESHOLDS, BUT, YOU
KNOW, A FLYOVER SURVEY GIVES YOU
IS ONLY GOING TO PICK UP A VERY
LARGE LEAK, BUT IT'S SOMETHING
WHERE YOU CAN COVER A LOT OF
GROUND, VERY QUICKLY. SO DOING
THAT ON AN OCCASIONAL BASIS
COMBINED WITH THE, YOU KNOW,
CLOSER TO THE GROUND VEHICLE
SURVEYS REALLY ENSURES MAXIMUM
COVERAGE FOR A PIPELINE SYSTEM.
AND I THINK THOSE APPROACHES
THAT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED IN, YOU
KNOW, FOR NATURAL GAS PIPELINES
ARE ALSO GOING TO BE SORT OF
BEST OF PERFORMANCE FOR HYDROGEN
PIPELINES AS THE DETECTION
TECHNOLOGIES CATCH UP. WELL,
YOUR COMMENT IS PERFECT. MY NEXT
QUESTION WAS GOING TO BE ABOUT
MEASURING LEAKAGE AND THE
VARIOUS TECHNIQUES AND WHAT DO
WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY CONTINUOUS?
WHAT DO WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY
PERSISTENT, AND WHAT ARE THE
TECHNIQUES AND THE OTHER HALF OF
THAT QUESTION IS WHO SHOULD BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING THE
MEASURING AND HOW PUBLIC SHOULD
THAT INFORMATION BE? THOUGHTS
MAYBE USING THE AGAIN, THE
NATURAL GAS SYSTEM AS AN ANALOG.
I AGREE WITH THE WITNESS FROM
EDF, AARON, THAT THE SENATE
BILL, SB 1371. I HOPE I'M
GETTING THE NUMBER CORRECT, AND
THE MULTITUDE OF TECHNIQUES THAT
WERE, HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED BECAUSE
OF THAT RULE HAVE, HAVE REALLY
RESULTED IN A SIGNIFICANT,
REDUCTION IN METHANE LEAKS AND
WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT
MULTITUDE OF EITHER MEASUREMENT
TECHNOLOGIES, DEPLOYED BY THE
ASSET OWNER, OF THE PIPELINE
OWNER, IN THIS CASE, LIKELY OR
FACILITY. BUT THEN, SUBMITTED TO
THE STATE FOR REVIEW, WHICH IS
THE PROCESS IN WHICH THE SB
1371, WORK TAKES PLACE. SO THE Þ
AND OR MY APOLOGIES CHAIR
MONITORED BY A THIRD PARTY OR
VERIFIED BY A THIRD PARTY. SO
THE OWNER SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE
FOR THE FOR THE MONITORING AND
MEASURING AND THAT PUBLIC, THAT
INFORMATION SHOULD BE PUBLIC.
THAT IS THE METHOD OF, CURRENTLY
BEING USED BROADLY FOR THE SP
AND THE METHOD YOU WOULD SUPPORT
FOR HYDROGEN. ALSO OR THE METHOD
THAT YOU RECOMMEND FOR HYDROGEN.
I WOULD I WOULD RECOMMEND A
SIMILAR APPROACH FOR HYDROGEN.
ANYBODY FEEL DIFFERENTLY ON THAT
. NO, I FEEL STRONGLY IN FAVOR
OF IT THAT IT SHOULD BE THE
PIPELINE OWNER'S RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT SHOULD ALSO BE SOMETHING
THAT IS TRANSPARENT. AND I WOULD
URGE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T
ALLOW FOR A MONTHLY REPORTING
SYSTEM. THIS IS ALL DATA THAT'S
CAPTURED ON THE CLOUD. NOW. IT
CAN BE INSTANTANEOUSLY AVAILABLE
IN SACRAMENTO AS WELL AS
ANYWHERE ELSE. AND IT SHOULD BE
ANY DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT. YEAH
MR. RAJU, I NOT NECESSARILY TO
DISAGREE, BUT I THINK, I DO WANT
TO REEMPHASIZE THE NEED FOR
COMBINATION OF TECHNOLOGIES. SO
SENSORS, PRESSURE MONITORING,
FLOW MONITORING AND DRIVE BY,
SCENT SENSING, ALL OF THOSE
THINGS. AND IN TERMS OF THE,
MONITORING ITSELF, I THINK IT
SHOULD BE THE ENTITIES THAT OWN
AND OPERATE THE PIPELINE, BUT
WITH RIGOROUS OVERSIGHT BY STATE
AGENCIES, INCLUDING SUPERVISION
AND THIRD PARTY VERIFICATION.
GREAT. THANK YOU. YES, SIR.
YEAH, I THINK THIS IS AN AREA
WHERE TO A PREVIOUS COMMENT I
MADE, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO
STRIKE THAT BALANCE BETWEEN
PERFORMANCE BASED AND
PRESCRIPTION BASED, REGULATIONS,
ALLOWING OPERATORS THE
FLEXIBILITY TO USE A FULL SUITE
OF DIFFERENT LEAK DETECTION
TECHNOLOGIES DEPENDENT ON THE
UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT
SYSTEM, BUT ALSO HAVING SOME
PRESCRIPTIVE STANDARDS IN PLACE
AS TO HOW ACCURATE, SENSITIVE,
RELIABLE THAT EQUIPMENT THEY USE
IS. GREAT. THANK YOU. ANYTHING
ELSE ON THIS YEAH I WOULD OH GO
AHEAD GO AHEAD. MR. MURPHY.
THANKS. SORRY. AARON MURPHY EDF
JUST WOULD ADD TO ALL THOSE
GREAT COMMENTS, TO SAY, YOU
KNOW, ON THE LAST POINT, THAT
BILL, BILL WITH PIPELINE SAFETY
TRUST MADE, I THINK THAT'S
RIGHT. AND WHERE WE KNOW WHAT
THE MOST EFFECTIVE TECHNOLOGIES
AND MOST EFFECTIVE WORK
PRACTICES ARE, I THINK IT CAN
MAKE SENSE FOR THE REGULATOR TO
SORT OF LAY OUT WHAT THE
PRACTICES AND TECHNOLOGIES ARE
THAT OPERATORS SHOULD BE USING.
WHEN WE'RE IN A SPACE WHERE
WE'RE STILL REALLY TRYING TO
IMPROVE AND DEVELOP THE
TECHNOLOGIES, IT CAN MAKE SENSE
TO PROVIDE MORE FLEXIBILITY TO
OPERATORS AND THEN UPDATE THOSE
STANDARDS OVER TIME AS WE GET A
BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT
WORKS. I DID WANT TO MAKE A
POINT. I THINK IN GENERAL, EDF'S
PERSPECTIVE IS THAT IT'S THE
PIPELINE. YOU KNOW, IT MAKES
SENSE FOR THE REGULATOR TO
DIRECT PIPELINE OPERATORS TO BE
CONDUCTING LEAK SURVEYS,
GATHERING THAT INFORMATION ABOUT
THE EXTENT OF LEAKAGE AND
HYDROGEN LOSSES ON THEIR
PIPELINE, AND REPORTING THAT
INFORMATION PUBLICLY AND
MANAGING THOSE LEAKS AND FIXING
THEM, I DID WANT TO SHARE. AND
AGAIN, I'M ANALOGIZING TO THE
NATURAL GAS PIPELINE SYSTEM, BUT
THE US ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
AGENCY RECENTLY FINALIZED,
METHANE MITIGATION STANDARDS,
PRIMARILY FOR UPSTREAM OIL AND
GAS PRODUCTION, AND INCORPORATED
A NEW ELEMENT INTO THAT
STANDARD, WHICH IS THE ABILITY
OF THIRD PARTIES OTHER THAN
OPERATORS TO IDENTIFY LEAKS OR
OTHER LARGE POINT SOURCES OF
METHANE EMISSIONS, PROVIDE THAT
INFORMATION TO EPA, AND THEN
CREATE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE
OPERATORS TO ADDRESS THOSE
EMISSIONS. I THINK AS WE SEE THE
EMERGENCE OF BROADER EMISSIONS
MONITORING BY THIRD PARTIES LIKE
THROUGH THE EMERGENCE OF
SATELLITES, AS WELL AS MORE
FREQUENT FLYOVER CAMPAIGNS BEING
CONDUCTED BY ACADEMIC
RESEARCHERS, BY OTHER
STAKEHOLDERS, THERE IS VALUE IN
ENSURING THAT THAT INFORMATION
RIGHT WHERE LEAKS OR OR MAJOR
POINT SOURCES OF A GREENHOUSE
GAS ARE IDENTIFIED BY A THIRD
PARTY, FOR THAT TO ALSO BE
REQUIRED, YOU KNOW, FOR THE
OPERATOR TO RESPOND, TO THOSE
SOURCES. AND SO, YOU KNOW,
WHETHER IT'S THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA IS SORT OF AN
INTERMEDIARY WHERE INFORMATION
IS REPORTED TO THE STATE, AND
THEN IT'S PASSED ON TO THE
OPERATOR, OR WHETHER IT'S
DIRECTLY, YOU KNOW, MADE PUBLIC.
I THINK THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS
TO THINK ABOUT IT, BUT WANT TO
RECOGNIZE, LIKE THE VALUE OF THE
MORE INFORMATION WE HAVE, THE
BETTER, TO ENSURE THAT OUR
HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE IS
MANAGED CAREFULLY. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH. GO AHEAD, MR.
CONNOLLY, SO THE ONLY THING I
WOULD ADD TO THAT IS, YOU KNOW,
THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT THE LEAKS
TO BEGIN WITH, AND THAT PULLS
EVERYTHING BACK TO HAVING THE
PIPELINE SYSTEM SPECIFIC
ENGINEERED TO THE MOLECULES THAT
YOU WANT TO TRANSPORT. SO, YOU
KNOW, THERE ARE CERTAIN
TECHNIQUES, WITH HYDROGEN
PIPELINES, YOU KNOW, ONE ONE IS
IF YOU ELIMINATE CONNECTIONS IS
YOU ELIMINATE LEAK POINTS. SO
THAT COMES INTO, YOU KNOW, SOME
SOME FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT
APPROACHES TO THE DESIGN OF A
AGGRESSIVELY ELIMINATING ALL
CONNECTIONS, ALL FLANGES GOING
TO A MORE CONTINUOUSLY WELDED
DESIGN. WHAT THAT DOES IS IT
ELIMINATES THOSE LEAKAGE POINTS
WHERE LEAKAGE CAN OCCUR. SO IT'S
NOT JUST ABOUT THE MONITORING.
THAT'S THE MONITORING. IS THERE.
IF YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM, MAYBE
WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN
THAT'S WHERE YOU WANT TO CORRECT
IT. IN THE IN DESIGNING THE
PIPELINE APPROPRIATELY FOR THE
MOLECULE. GREAT. THANK YOU MR.
CHAIR. THE COMPANY THAT MAKES
THAT PIPE IN TEXAS NOVVI
DELIVERS IT ON 18 FOOT REELS SO
THAT YOU CAN PUT ALMOST A MILE
OF PIPE DOWN WITHOUT A SINGLE
ATTACHMENT POINT. I TEND TO
AGREE WITH AIR PRODUCTS ON THAT.
I ALSO, THOUGH, DO NOT AGREE
THAT THE ONLY LEAKAGE OCCURS AT
THE JOINT IT OCCURS PERMEATING
THROUGH THE PIPELINE ALONG THE
ENTIRE PIPELINE FACE. BECAUSE NO
MATERIAL, INCLUDING STAINLESS
STEEL, CAN HOLD HYDROGEN
MOLECULE CAPTIVE. SO THE
QUESTION IS HOW TO CAPTURE THOSE
MOLECULES WHEN THEY COME OUT AND
THEN KEEP THEM SAFELY AWAY FROM
THE ATMOSPHERE. SO YOU, YOU, YOU
GENTLEMEN AND LADY HAVE BEEN
SITTING HERE FOR ALMOST 2.5
HOURS WITH NO BREAK. WE'RE GOING
TO BRING THIS TO AN END IN ABOUT
TEN, 15 MINUTES. IF YOU IF YOU
IF YOU CAN BE PATIENT WITH THAT,
SO I'M JUST DOWN TO THE FINAL
THINGS AND MR. HARTIGAN, JUMP
ANYTIME, ANY, ANYTIME YOU'RE
READY. BUT I WANT TO JUST VERY
BRIEFLY TOUCH ON MATERIALS JUST
SO THAT WE GET IT OUT THERE
BECAUSE AS YOU'VE JUST
MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, THE
PIPELINE LEAK, YOU MENTIONED,
YOU KNOW, GETTING RID OF THE
JOINTS, OPINE ANY OF YOU VERY
BRIEFLY ON IS IT GOING TO BE
PLASTIC, IS IT GOING TO BE YOU
KNOW, TREATED STAINLESS STEEL,
WHICH IS WHAT THEY TALKED ABOUT
WHEN WE WERE IN UTAH. AND, YOU
KNOW, THEIR THEIR PIPELINE
COMING DOWN. WHAT SHOULD WE KNOW
ABOUT MATERIALS AS BRIEFLY AS
POSSIBLE. ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD.
TIME FOR LABOR. THANK YOU. CHAIR
A WELDED STEEL SYSTEM, A POST
HOLE DIGGER. CAN'T GO THROUGH
IT, POLY PIPE IS VERY
DAMAGEABLE. IF WE'RE SITTING
HERE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY, THAT
WOULD NOT BE THE SAFEST
INSTALLATION. THANK YOU, THANK
YOU. GO AHEAD, MR. CONNERY. I, I
WOULD SAY THE BEST WAY TO
ADDRESS THE MATERIALS OF
CONSTRUCTION IS APPROPRIATE
REGULATION ON IF, IF WE WERE THE
REGULATORS AND YOU WERE
ADDRESSING US WITH TODAY'S
TECHNOLOGY, WHAT WOULD YOU
RECOMMEND? SOME STAINLESS STEEL,
YOU KNOW, TREATED STAINLESS
STEEL, OR WOULD YOU RECOMMEND
SOME OTHER. SO TODAY FOR
HYDROGEN WE FOLLOW WE FOLLOW THE
VOLUNTARY GUIDANCE OF B 3112
WHICH IS A SPECIFIC GRADE OF
STAINLESS OF CARBON STEEL THAT
IS USED IN, HYDROGEN SERVICE.
GREAT. I THINK TO THE, TO THE
POINT AROUND, ALTERNATE
MATERIALS, IF YOU LOOK AT
PIPELINES IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN,
PROBABLY ABOUT A THIRD OF EVENTS
ARE CAUSED BY THIRD PARTY LINE
STRIKES, SO THAT YOU HAVE THE
THERE IS AN INTERNAL SAFETY
ISSUE, BUT THEN A SIGNIFICANT
AMOUNT OF LOSS OF CONTAINMENT IS
EXTERNAL. AND THAT'S THE OTHER
THING TO FACTOR INTO THE
MATERIAL OF CONSTRUCTION. THANK
YOU VERY MUCH. WE'RE GOING TO GO
TO THAT POINT, CHAIR, IT SHOULD
BE THE POLYPIPE INSIDE OF A
CONTAINMENT PIPE, WHICH COULD BE
METAL, COULD BE ANYTHING. IN
OTHER WORDS, YOU WOULDN'T WANT
TO PUT A POLY PIPE IN THE GROUND
ALL BY ITSELF. UNCONTAINED.
THANK YOU, MR. I DO WANT TO ADD
ON THE MATERIALS SIDE, WE HAVE
REASONABLY GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF
WHICH MATERIALS ARE SUSCEPTIBLE
TO HYDROGEN, BOTH ON THE
NONMETALS, PLASTICS SIDE AND
ALSO ON THE METAL SIDE. AND
THERE ARE SOME STEEL GRADES OF
STEEL THAT ARE VERY RESISTANT TO
HYDROGEN, DIFFUSION AND
EMBRITTLEMENT, BUT ALSO JUST
BECAUSE HYDROGEN DIFFUSES
THROUGH A MATERIAL DOES NOT
NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT IS
GOING TO CAUSE CATASTROPHIC
FAILURE, SO IT IS A QUESTION OF
WHETHER IT'S CAUSING
EMBRITTLEMENT, WHETHER IT'S
WHETHER THERE'S CRACK
INITIATION, CRACK PROPAGATION.
SO, A RANGE OF MATERIALS USED IN
THE NATURAL GAS INFRASTRUCTURE
TODAY ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO
HYDROGEN, BUT THERE'S WAYS TO
MITIGATE THE ISSUES. BUT ALSO
THERE ARE MATERIALS THAT ARE
VERY RESILIENT TO HYDROGEN.
GREAT. MR. MOORLACH, WHAT I
WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT B 3112,
AGAIN, A VOLUNTARY STANDARD IS A
IS A GOOD START, BUT I WOULD
NOT, DIMINISH THE ABILITY TO
LOOK FOR THESE, COATED SOLUTIONS
AS AN EXAMPLE, AS YOU MAY HAVE
SEEN IN UTAH AND THEN OTHER,
POLY TYPE PIPE THAT MIGHT EMERGE
IN THE FUTURE. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH. THE TWO FINAL QUESTIONS.
WHAT SHOULD WE CONSIDER WHEN IT
COMES TO RATEPAYER COST AND
PIPELINES? AND MY FINAL QUESTION
IS WHAT ELSE? WHAT HAVE WE NOT
COVERED TODAY THAT WE SHOULD
HAVE COVERED AND WE SHOULD COVER
AT SOME OTHER POINT IN TIME. SO
YOU CAN THINK ABOUT BOTH OF
THOSE. BUT IN TERMS OF RATEPAYER
COST, WHAT SHOULD WE BE THINKING
ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO PIPELINES
AND THE IMPACT ON REPAIRS, MR.
CHAIRMAN, I'LL START AS, SO WHAT
I WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT, THE
CURRENT STRUCTURE WE HAVE IN
CALIFORNIA FOR REGULATING
ENERGY, ESPECIALLY UTILITIES,
DEMANDS, FINDS A FAIR, FAIR, BUT
JUST RETURN ON INVESTMENT. SO AS
A MATTER OF LAW, THERE IS A
MECHANISM FOR THE STATE IN THIS
CASE, THE UTILITIES COMMISSION,
TO, TO REGULATE THE, THE
INVESTMENTS OF THE PIPELINE
OPERATOR. I'D FURTHER SUGGEST
THAT THAT, PIPELINE PIPELINE
INFRASTRUCTURE IS GENERALLY,
INVESTMENT THAT TAKES, DECADES
TO UNFOLD AND IS USED FOR MANY
DECADES. SO A MECHANISM THAT
WOULD ALLOW THAT TO TAKE PLACE
FOR THE MARKET, IT INCLUDING THE
CAPITAL AND DEBT MARKETS, TO
RESPOND TO THOSE SIGNALS, WE
THINK IS ESSENTIAL. SHOULD THE
RATES BE PAID BY THE OFF TAKER,
OR SPREAD AMONGST A LARGER GROUP
OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SOMEHOW TIED
INTO THE PIPELINE NETWORK BY THE
OFF TAKER? IN OTHER WORDS,
THERE'S PLENTY OF ROOM IN THE
PRICE BETWEEN THE ORIGINATION
COST OF HYDROGEN AND THE
DELIVERY COST TO LET THE PEOPLE
WHO USE THE HYDROGEN PAY FOR THE
PIPELINE. I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH
THE CONCEPT THAT HAS TO BE A
FAIR AND JUST PRICE. IT'S NOT
SOMETHING DONE FREE, BUT YOU CAN
BUILD THAT INTO THE PER KILOGRAM
COST TO DELIVER, WHICH IS NOT
THAT GREAT CONSIDERING THE COST
OF HYDROGEN. IT'S NOT THAT BIG
NUMBER. THANK YOU. I THINK GIVEN
HOW SUBSTANTIAL THE COSTS ARE
GOING TO BE, I THINK THERE
SHOULD BE A LOT OF INCENTIVE
AND, ASSISTANCE FROM OTHER
PROGRAMS THAT THE STATE IS
RUNNING, MAYBE CAP AND TRADE OR
OTHER PROGRAMS WHERE THE BECAUSE
USING HYDROGEN WILL RESULT IN
SOME CLIMATE BENEFIT AND
ULTIMATELY CAN FEED INTO IT, WE
HAVE TO BE CAREFUL AS WE KIND OF
TRANSITION AWAY FROM THE FOSSIL
INFRASTRUCTURE. THAT IT'S NOT
THE MOST IMPACTED OR VULNERABLE
COMMUNITIES THAT ARE ALSO PAYING
A BIGGER CHUNK OF THE COST. SO I
WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL IN
DESIGNING HOW THOSE COSTS ARE
PAID FOR. GREAT. THANK YOU. I'M
GOING TO MAKE THIS THE CLOSE AND
IN YOUR CLOTHES. WELL, NOW I'M
GOING TO ASK THIS QUESTION AND
THEN I'LL LET YOU CLOSE. WHAT
ELSE. WHAT DID WE MISS? WHAT IS
THERE A MAJOR ISSUE? I DON'T
MEAN SOMETHING MINOR, BUT IS
THERE SOMETHING MAJOR ON THE
ISSUE OF PIPELINES THAT WE HAVE
NOT COVERED TODAY THAT YOU THINK
WE SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST
MENTIONED AS A TOPIC FOR
LEGISLATORS TO BE AWARE OF? YES,
SIR. YEAH. IF I MAY, CHAIR, WHAT
I WOULD SUGGEST IS PIPELINES
ALLOW FOR SCALE IN A WAY THAT
OTHER SOLUTIONS DO NOT, AND
SCALE WILL BE REQUIRED BOTH TO
ACHIEVE THE GREENHOUSE GAS
BENEFIT, BUT MOST ESPECIALLY IN
PLACES LIKE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
THE AIR QUALITY BENEFIT. SO THE
ABILITY TO ELIMINATE DIESEL
PARTICULATE MATTER, THE, NOX AND
OTHERS THAT COME FROM
TRANSPORTATION, THOSE
SIGNIFICANT HEALTH BENEFITS, I
THINK ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE
WEIGHED IN. WE DID DO SCALE,
LOCATION AND COMPETITIVENESS ALL
AT ONE TIME, BUT YOU CAN COME
BACK TO THAT STUFF. YES, SIR.
MR. I MENTIONED IT IN MY OPENING
REMARKS, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE MAIN
REASON AS AN ORGANIZATION THAT
WE ARE OPPOSED TO BLENDING
HYDROGEN INTO DISTRIBUTION
SYSTEMS IS BECAUSE OF WHAT'S ON
THE OTHER SIDE OF THE METER, THE
INTERNAL PIPING IN PEOPLE'S
HOMES, THAT IS NOT UNDER THE
JURISDICTION OF ANY PIPELINE
SAFETY AGENCY. IT'S NOT UNDER
THE CONTROL OF THE PIPELINE
OPERATOR. AND, IS REALLY THE
WEAKEST LINK IN ALL OF THIS. AND
SO I WOULD, URGE A CAUTION THERE
, I ALSO JUST IF I DON'T GET A
CHANCE TO SAY IT, I JUST WANT TO
EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION TO THE
LEVEL OF DIALOG WE HAD TODAY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHAIR. AND TO
ALL THE PANELISTS, THIS HAS BEEN
A REALLY GREAT CONVERSATION.
WELL, YOU'RE YOU'RE YOU'RE JUST
STARTED OFF STARTED US OFF ON
THE CLOSING COMMENTS. SO, YOU
CAN WORK IN, ANYTHING YOU THINK
WE SHOULD COVER, INTO YOUR
CLOTHES? BUT WHY DON'T WE GO
AHEAD AND JUST, START OUR START
OUR CLOTHES HERE? GO AHEAD, MR.
ROTH, AGAIN, I WOULD ALSO LIKE
TO EXPRESS MY THANKS TO THE
CHAIR AND TO THE PANELISTS, BUT,
YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE
NOT PART OF THE PIPELINE, I
THINK THE STORAGE INFRASTRUCTURE
FOR NATURAL GAS AND THE END USE
EQUIPMENT ARE, OF COURSE, VERY
CLOSELY, INTRICATELY TIED, I
THINK, I'M NOT SURE. MAYBE
THERE'S A SEPARATE PANEL FOR
THAT, BUT THOSE SHOULD BE
ADDRESSED. AND ANY OF THE TOPICS
WE DISCUSSED TODAY, WE COULD
HAVE A SEPARATE PANEL
DISCUSSION. WE COULD DIVE DEEPER
INTO THOSE TOPICS, BUT
PARTICULARLY THE COST AND
EFFECTIVENESS AND THE ULTIMATE
BENEFITS. I THINK WE COULD SPEND
A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME TALKING
ABOUT THE DIFFERENT APPROACHES.
STORAGE WOULD HAVE BEEN A
NATURAL TO MATCH UP HERE WITH
PIPELINES, WOULDN'T IT? AND
STUFF. RIGHT MR. BERCOW, YOU
WANT TO DO YOUR CLOSING. THANK
YOU. YES I THINK THAT THE
ASSEMBLY NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT
THE INTERFACE BETWEEN THE
ELECTRICAL GRID WE CURRENTLY
HAVE, WHICH CLEARLY WILL NOT
SUFFICE FOR THE FUTURE AND WHAT
THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE
MOLECULES AND THE ELECTRONS
SHOULD BE. IDEALLY, I GAVE ONE
EXAMPLE EARLIER. IF YOU HAD A
FUEL CELL GENERATING ELECTRICITY
FROM HYDROGEN AND IT WAS
POWERING INSTEAD OF A PEAKER
PLANT USING NATURAL GAS, YOU'D
BE ABLE TO AVOID COMPLETELY
PUTTING HYDROGEN TO ANYBODY'S
HOME OR BUSINESS OR OFFICE
BECAUSE THEY'D GET MORE
ELECTRICITY AND IT WOULD BE
GENERATED LOCALLY. WE WOULDN'T
BE BUILDING A MASSIVE NEW
STRUCTURE FOR AN ENTIRE
REPLACEMENT OF THE GRID. WHEN
YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF
ELECTRIC CARS THAT ARE COMING,
BATTERY ELECTRIC CARS, AND YOU
LOOK AT THE POTENTIAL OF FUEL
CELL ELECTRIC CARS TO HOP OFF
LOAD THAT. IT IS AN ENORMOUS
OPPORTUNITY, AND I DON'T THINK
THE STATES EVEN LOOKED AT IT
YET. WHAT'S THE PLAY OFF OVER
THE NEXT TEN YEARS OF THE OF THE
GRID? THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.
NAVIN. I THINK ONE, ONE THING TO
CONSIDER, IS THAT IN MOST MODELS
THAT MODEL THE COST OF HYDROGEN
TO THE END USER, THE
TRANSPORTATION COSTS, I.E. THE
PIPELINE COSTS, ACTUALLY PAY A
FAIRLY LIMITED ROLE. THE LARGEST
COSTS ARE TYPICALLY WHEN YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT ELECTROLYTIC
HYDROGEN. SO HYDROGEN PRODUCED
FROM WATER IS TYPICALLY THE
POWER COSTS. SO I THINK LOOKING
AT THE OVERALL COST OF DELIVERED
HYDROGEN, NOT JUST
TRANSPORTATION AND MAKING SURE
WE'RE DOING THAT IN A WAY THAT
MOST BENEFITS CALIFORNIANS,
RATEPAYERS, ALL ALL WHO ARE
IMPACTED BY THE ENERGY SYSTEM, I
THINK IS KEY. THANK YOU. I JUST
WANT TO ADD, THANK YOU FOR
ALLOWING US TO BE HERE TODAY.
THE STATE BUILDING TRADES AND
OUR AFFILIATES WILL CONTINUE TO,
SPEND THE MONEY AND THE TRAINING
AND INVEST IN WHICHEVER
DIRECTION THE INDUSTRY GOES.
WE'RE GOING TO BE READY, AND OUR
MEMBERS ARE GOING TO BE READY.
SO THANK YOU. DO YOU HAVE A
SENSE OF HAS HAVE YOU FOLKS BEEN
ABLE TO GET A SCALE? WHAT DO YOU
ANTICIPATE WILL BE THE HYDROGEN
ECONOMY FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IN
TERMS OF WORKFORCE? OH MY. 2 TO
2 MANY VARIABLES TO WELL I MEAN
WITH ARCHES. ARCHES IS AMAZING,
MY BOSS, PRESIDENT HANNON, WE
WERE ACTUALLY A, YOU KNOW, A
FOUNDER OF THAT THE BUILDING
TRADES AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE
TALKING, WHAT, 22 BILLION, I
MEAN, IT'S AMAZING, BUT IT WON'T
BE SUCCESSFUL IF WE DON'T FIGURE
OUT THIS PIPELINE AND HOW TO
DISTRIBUTE IT. AND HOW TO GET IT
SPREAD OUT SO IT CAN BE
AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYBODY. MR.
CONNELLY. SO THE, THE PRIVATE
SECTOR IS RESPONDING WITH
TREMENDOUS INVESTMENT IN THE
ENTIRE VALUE CHAIN, PRODUCTION,
DISTRIBUTION, STORAGE,
DISPENSING THAT SAME PRIVATE
SECTOR OPERATES 90% OF THE
HYDROGEN PIPELINES TODAY,
CERTAINLY OUR PRODUCTS HAS DONE
THAT WITH AN OUTSTANDING AND
UNENVIABLE SAFETY RECORD, A
SAFETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT
PRIORITY AS WE MAKE THIS
TRANSITION. OPERATING HYDROGEN
SYSTEMS SAFELY REQUIRES SYSTEMS
TO BE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR
THAT. AND IT REQUIRES OPERATOR
EXPERTISE AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR
HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT IT CAN DO
THAT WITH AN OUTSTANDING SAFETY
RECORD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
AND, MISS MURPHY, WE GET TO YOU
GET TO CLOSE THIS CLOSE THIS OFF
HERE. ACTUALLY, MR. HART,
THANKS. SO MUCH. GET TO CLOSE IT
OFF. YEAH. REALLY APPRECIATE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO TESTIFY WITH THIS
GROUP TODAY, I'LL JUST BRIEFLY
SAY IN CLOSING THAT FROM OUR
PERSPECTIVE, THE OVERSIGHT OF
HYDROGEN PIPELINES IS NEEDED TO
ENSURE THAT DEVELOPMENT AND
OPERATION IS EQUITABLE AND
CAREFULLY MANAGES SAFETY AND
CLIMATE RISKS. AND HYDROGEN
PIPELINE DEVELOPMENT SHOULD BE
TAILORED TO FACILITATE STRATEGIC
HYDROGEN DEPLOYMENT FOR HARD TO
ELECTRIFY END USERS. ANY
BLENDING OF HYDROGEN INTO THE
EXISTING NATURAL GAS PIPELINE
SYSTEM REQUIRES EXTREMELY
CAREFUL OVERSIGHT AND NEEDS TO
BE EVALUATED AGAINST ALL
DECARBONIZATION ALTERNATIVES,
INCLUDING ELECTRIFICATION. THANK
YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH,
ASSEMBLY MEMBER HART. YEAH, I
JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO
YOU, CHAIR BENNETT, FOR
ORGANIZING THIS SERIES OF
PRESENTATIONS AND FOR THE
PANELISTS TODAY FOR SHARING YOUR
DEEP EXPERTISE ON THIS SUBJECT.
I WASN'T ABLE TO BE HERE FOR THE
WHOLE TIME, BUT THE PART THAT I
WAS WAS EXTREMELY VALUABLE AND
HELPFUL AND LOOK FORWARD TO THE
NEXT OPPORTUNITY TO DIVE INTO
THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT
SUBJECT. WELL, I WANT TO THANK
EVERYBODY THAT PARTICIPATED, BUT
PARTICULARLY OUR, SEVEN
PANELISTS, THIS WAS NO SMALL
TASK TO ASK YOU TO BE HERE AND
THEN TO ASK YOU TO SIT THROUGH
2.5 HOURS, WITH WITH NO BREAK
AND WITH QUESTIONS THAT YOU DID
NOT HAVE IN ADVANCE AND TRY TO
RESPOND. I PARTICULARLY
APPRECIATE OUR PRIVATE SECTOR
REPRESENTATIVE FOR, TAKING THE
FRONT ROW SEAT AND, BUT ALL OF
YOU FOR TRYING TO APPROACH THIS
PROFESSIONALLY SO THAT WE HAVE
THE BEST SHOT AT GIVING THE
PUBLIC THE BEST POLICIES
POSSIBLE, GOING FORWARD. SO THIS
IS AN OPEN INVITATION, THÀNH
THAT WE ARE TRYING TO COMPILE A
BODY OF WORK THAT ANYBODY COULD
GO BACK AND LOOK AT AND THIS
HEARING WILL BE PART OF THAT, SO
IF YOU WANT TO ADD TO THAT BODY
OF WORK, PLEASE CONTACT OUR
OFFICE. IF THERE'S SOMETHING
THAT YOU THINK WOULD BE HELPFUL,
IMPORTANT, VALUABLE IF SOMETHING
COMES UP AFTER THIS. AND, YOU
HAVE OUR, OUR RESPECT AND
ADMIRATION FOR BEING WILLING TO,
TO BE HERE AND HELP US OUT. SO
LET US KNOW IF THERE'S ANYTHING
WE CAN DO TO HELP YOU OUT AS YOU
GO FORWARD. ALSO THANK YOU ALL
VERY MUCH. AND WITH THAT, THIS
HEARING IS ADJOURNED. OH, I'M
SORRY. PUBLIC COMMENT. YES.
RIGHT, CAN PUBLIC COMMENT WAIT?
60S. BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I CAN
BE RIGHT BACK. PERFECT. YEAH,
ACTUALLY, WE DON'T HAVE THAT
MANY PEOPLE HERE. NO. GO AHEAD.
WE'LL DO PUBLIC COMMENT,
GENTLEMEN, IF YOU'LL MOVE AWAY
FROM HERE SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN
, BE ON THE SCREEN. RIGHT. DID
YOU GET FRIENDS? NO, I WAS UP
HERE. I WAS ASKING THEM TO GO
DOWN. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. BETH
OLASO, ON BEHALF OF THE
AGRICULTURAL ENERGY CONSUMERS
ASSOCIATION, WE ARE FULLY
SUPPORTED. WE'RE WITH WHO?
AGRICULTURAL ENERGY CONSUMERS
ASSOCIATION. WE ARE FULLY
SUPPORTIVE OF HYDROGEN USE IN
THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR SECTOR
AND IN DEDICATED PIPELINES FOR
EVENTUAL USE IN THE HARD TO
DECARBONIZE SECTOR. HOWEVER, AS
RATEPAYERS, WE HAVE STRONG
CONCERNS WITH PIPELINE BLENDING,
BLENDING SMALL AMOUNTS OF
HYDROGEN INTO EXISTING PIPELINES
WILL NOT BE COST EFFECTIVE IN
THE STATE'S DECARBONIZATION
EFFORTS. MOREOVER, BLENDING WILL
BE RISKY, ESPECIALLY IN THE
STATE'S ANTIQUATED EXISTING
NATURAL GAS PIPELINE SYSTEM. WE
SHOULD ALL REMEMBER THE SAN
BRUNO AND ALISO CANYON. BOTTOM
LINE IS, SOCAL GAS CANNOT BE
TRUSTED TO PROTECT RESIDENTS IN
THEIR SERVICE TERRITORY. WE HAVE
STRONG CONCERNS ABOUT COST AS
WELL. IT SHOULD NOT BE LOST ON
THIS BODY THAT SOCAL GAS IS
CURRENTLY PROPOSING A MASSIVE
45% RATE INCREASE, WHICH WILL
COST RATEPAYERS NEARLY $5
BILLION OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL
YEARS AND THEN $2 BILLION EVERY
YEAR THEREAFTER. ADDING
EXPENSIVE HYDROGEN TO THE MIX
WILL SIMPLY DRIVE RATES FAR
HIGHER, DRAMATICALLY INCREASING
RATES THAT ARE ALREADY RESULTING
IN RATEPAYERS UNABLE TO PAY
THEIR BILLS. FINALLY SOCAL GAS
PLANS TO BUILD 400 MILES OF
HYDROGEN PIPELINE ON THE BACKS
OF RATEPAYERS AS PART OF THEIR
LOS ANGELES LINK PROJECT, AND
ITS ILL CONCEIVED. ANY HYDROGEN
PIPELINES BEING BUILT SHOULD BE
PAID BY SEMPRA SHAREHOLDERS AND
NOT RATEPAYERS SUCH AS FARMERS
AND FOOD PRODUCTION FACILITIES
IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY, WHO
WILL NOT BENEFIT FROM PIPELINES
DESIGNED TO SERVE THE LA BASIN.
SIMPLY WE CANNOT AFFORD THE
SOCAL GAS PIPELINE. DREAM THANK
YOU. THANK YOU AND REMIND
EVERYBODY THIS IS ONE MINUTE FOR
YOUR COMMENTS, PLEASE. HI. THANK
YOU, CHAIR BENNETT I'M JENNIFER
HAMILTON, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE
CALIFORNIA HYDROGEN BUSINESS
COUNCIL. IT WAS GREAT TO SEE YOU
AT OUR EVENT, I JUST WANTED TO
MAKE AN OVERALL COMMENT AROUND
THE TOPIC OF SAFETY CODES AND
STANDARDS, AS IT PERTAINS TO
HYDROGEN IN GENERAL AND
INFRASTRUCTURE. AND THAT IS TO
SAY, I'VE PERSONALLY BEEN
WORKING IN THE FIELD FOR ABOUT
15 YEARS. BUT THE EFFORTS, OF
COURSE, GO BEYOND THAT, AND THAT
THERE HAS BEEN VERY MUCH A
CONCERTED EFFORT, AND SAFETY IS
ALWAYS A TOP PRIORITY WHEN IT
COMES TO THE USE OF HYDROGEN AND
INFRASTRUCTURE, AS IT HAS BEEN
USED SAFELY, RELATIVELY
SPEAKING, FOR DECADES, AND SO
THAT EFFORT CONTINUES WITH THESE
NEW AND EMERGING USES FOR, FOR
HYDROGEN THROUGH ORGANIZATIONS,
THE US DOE NUMBER ONE WITH THEIR
CODES, SAFETY CODES AND
STANDARDS, OFFICE, THE CENTER
FOR HYDROGEN SAFETY, WHICH
HOUSES THE HYDROGEN SAFETY
PANEL, WHICH I THINK MY,
COLLEAGUE REFERRED TO AND
THROUGH VARIOUS STANDARDS
DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATIONS. AND
I'D BE HAPPY TO PROVIDE YOU WITH
RESOURCES. THANK YOU. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH. GOOD MORNING, SENATOR
TIM SISSON, DIRECTOR OF MARKET
DEVELOPMENT AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS
FOR BALLARD POWER SYSTEMS. WE'VE
BEEN PRODUCING FUEL CELL MODULES
FOR OVER 45 YEARS. 26 YEARS ON
CALIFORNIA ROADS, IN PUBLIC
BUSSES. WE'RE GROWING FAST, AND
IT IS PROJECTED BY CTE THAT HALF
OF ALL THE BUSSES BY 2050. IN
CALIFORNIA WILL BE FUEL CELL
ELECTRIC BUSSES. AND THAT
ESTIMATE HAS GONE UP THREEFOLD
OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS. WHAT
THE CUSTOMERS ARE TELLING US IS
THAT THEY NEED LOWER COST
HYDROGEN TO MAKE IT VIABLE, AND
IT NEEDS TO BE RELIABLE, AND THE
PRICE HAS NOT MOVED IN OVER 20
YEARS. AND THE MONOPOLISTIC
PRACTICES IN THE INDUSTRY ARE
CONTRIBUTING A GREAT DEAL TO
THAT. SO I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE
SENATOR IN THESE INTELLIGENT
DISCUSSIONS, WHICH HAVE BEEN
FANTASTIC TO BE AWARE OF THOSE
THAT SEEK TO USE REGULATION TO
RESTRICT THE MARKET AND KEEP
THIS A NICHE INDUSTRY WITH HIGH
PRICES AND HIGH BARRIERS TO
ENTRY. WE SAW IN 45 VÆ THERE WAS
ONLY A SINGLE PLAYER WITH A FEW
ADD ONS THAT WERE LOOKING FOR A
RESTRICTIVE MARKET TO KEEP IT
SMALL, AND WE DON'T NEED TO BE
IMPORTING HYDROGEN FROM THE
MIDDLE EAST AND KEEPING PRICES
HIGH HERE. TO JUSTIFY THAT, WE
NEED TO GROW HYDROGEN IN A
COMPETITIVE WAY AND GIVE THESE
CHANCES TO PEOPLE LIKE SOCAL
GAS, THE ANGELES LINK PROJECT TO
SHOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. AND
WE COMMEND EDF FOR A SENSIBLE
APPROACH. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST. YEAH, THANK
YOU, MORGAN GONZALEZ WITH
COMMUNITIES FOR A BETTER
ENVIRONMENT. I'M A RESIDENT OF A
VERY HEAVY ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE
AREA. WILMINGTON, K¾T 15 FOR LOS
ANGELES, I AM VERY EAGER TO SEE
THE ECONOMIC AND ENERGY BENEFITS
OF HYDROGEN, BUT IT'S
FRUSTRATING TO SEE THAT THESE
DENSE URBAN COMMUNITIES ARE
GOING TO BE THE GUINEA PIGS FOR
THIS HYDROGEN STRUCTURE, AND
ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE SAFETY
CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RISEN, I
THINK THAT REGULATION NEEDS TO
BE INCREDIBLY SEVERE EVEN ON THE
HEAVIER END, BECAUSE ULTIMATELY
WILMINGTON IS NO STRANGER TO
COMBUSTION, ESPECIALLY WITH THE
ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE THERE. AND
THOSE HEALTH IMPACTS HAVE BEEN
FELT FOR DECADES AND
GENERATIONS. I MEAN, THERE'S NOT
A PERSON ALIVE IN WILMINGTON
THAT REMEMBERS THE TIME BEFORE
REFINERIES AND EVEN THEN, WITH
THE NATURAL GAS TRANSITION, IT
WAS WE JUST RECENTLY HAD A GAS
TRUCK EXPLOSION. AND, YOU KNOW,
IS PEOPLE WERE SENT TO THE
HOSPITAL. FIREFIGHTERS ACTUALLY
DIED, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT
WE DON'T JUST FULL STEAM AHEAD
IN THE SAKE OF ENERGY
COMPETITIVENESS. THERE HAS TO BE
A SAFETY ASPECT FOR COMMUNITY AS
WELL. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH. AND NOW, LAST BUT NOT
LEAST, SORRY, HI, MR. CHAIR, AND
, THANK YOU FOR, YOU KNOW,
HAVING THIS CONVERSATION TODAY,
BUT AS YOU AND ASSEMBLY MEMBER
PETRIE-NORRIS HAD MENTIONED
MULTIPLE TIMES, YOU KNOW, WE DO
NEED ALL OF THE STAKEHOLDERS AT
THE TABLE, AND WE NEED
EVERYONE'S INPUT IN ORDER TO
COLLECTIVELY SOLVE THIS CRISIS
AND ACHIEVE CALIFORNIA'S CLIMATE
GOALS. AND NOTABLY, YOU KNOW,
THE INPUT THAT WAS NOT BEING
HEARD AND THE VOICES THAT
WEREN'T BEING VALUED TODAY WERE
THAT OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS,
ESPECIALLY FRONTLINE COMMUNITIES
THAT ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY
HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE. AND
THESE PROJECTS, THE DISCUSSION
TODAY WAS ABOUT LEAKS AND
PIPELINES AND RIGHT OF WAY, ALL
ISSUES THAT IMPACT FRONTLINE
COMMUNITIES. FIRST, WE AREN'T
TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BULLETS
GOING INTO HYDROGEN TANKS. THIS
ISN'T THE WILD WEST, BUT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT LOW INCOME
COMMUNITIES OF COLOR WITH
EXISTING CONFOUNDING CUT. SORRY,
COMMUNITIES OF COLOR THAT ARE
CURRENTLY DEALING WITH
CUMULATIVE IMPACTS. AND SO WHEN
YOU ASKED ABOUT THE BIGGEST
RISKS, WE DON'T SEE THOSE AS
BEING TO THE MARKET OR THE
INDUSTRY. THE BIGGEST RISKS ARE
ALLOWING THESE VULNERABLE
COMMUNITIES TO BECOME SACRIFICE
ZONES. AND LIKE MY COLLEAGUE HAD
SAID, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE
ARE REALLY URGING YOU GUYS TO
CONSIDER AND FOR CONVERSATIONS
MOVING FORWARD TO MAKE SURE THAT
COMMUNITY IS INVOLVED AND
INVITED TO THIS TABLE. THANK
YOU. I DO WANT TO LET YOU KNOW
THAT WE DID INVITE SOME, SOCIAL
JUSTICE GROUPS TO PARTICIPATE,
AND THEY JUST FELT LIKE THEY DID
NOT HAVE ENOUGH BACKGROUND ON
PIPELINE TECHNOLOGY TO, TO BE
PRODUCTIVE MEMBERS OF THIS. BUT
WE'RE VERY OPEN TO TRYING TO
HEAR. AND WE'VE STILL WANT TO
HEAR. AND SO WE REALLY
APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE TODAY.
AND THEY HAVE PARTICIPATED IN
OUR PAST PANELS, AND WE'LL TRY
TO MAKE SURE THEY CONTINUE TO BE
ACTIVE PARTICIPATION IN THE
CONVERSATION. SO THANK YOU FOR
BEING HERE TODAY. AND WITH THAT,
NOW, THIS MEETING IS ADJOURNED.
THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH.
FOR ZERO CARBON NITROGEN
COMPOUNDS HAVE A CHANCE. RIGHT
NOW. YEAH YEAH. YEAH DEFINITELY
NEVER HAVE. PRESSURE. ALWAYS.
YEAH.