THE ASSEMBLY, BANKING AND
FINANCE COMMITTEE IS CALLED TO
ORDER. AND, OF COURSE,
SERGEANTS. WE'D APPRECIATE IF
YOU REACHED OUT TO ABSENT
MEMBERS AND GET THEM TO COME IN,
SO WE DON'T HAVE A QUORUM. WE
WILL START AS A SUBCOMMITTEE,
WITH THAT, THE ASSEMBLY BANKING
FINANCE COMMITTEE, WHETHER YOU
ARE HERE IN PERSON, WATCHING
VIRTUALLY, I AM GRATEFUL THAT
YOU HAVE JOINED US IN ROOM 444.
I DO WANT TO NOTE THAT WE ARE
ACCEPTING WRITTEN TESTIMONY
THROUGH THE POSITION LETTER
PORTAL ON THE COMMITTEE'S
WEBSITE. WE DO HAVE TODAY FOUR
BILLS ON THE AGENDA. WE WILL BE
LIMITING TESTIMONY TO TWO
MINUTES FOR EACH PRIMARY
WITNESS, AND ADDITIONAL
WITNESSES WILL SIMPLY STATE
THEIR NAME, ORGANIZATION AND
POSITION. ASSEMBLY MEMBER
CERVANTES, COULD NOT BE WITH US
TODAY, SO I WOULD LIKE TO THANK
ASSEMBLY MEMBER KALRA, FOR
SUBBING IN TODAY, WHEN HE GETS
HERE, THERE IS, THERE IS NO
CONSENT CALENDAR, TODAY. SO WITH
THAT, WE WILL BE MOVING ON INTO
OUR HEARING, VERY GOOD. SO
AGAIN, WE WILL BE STARTING AS A
SUBCOMMITTEE AND WITH THE
PERMISSION OF FILE ITEM NUMBER
ONE, SB 1061. AUTHOR LIMÓN, SHE
IS GIVING, FIRST PRESENTATION
RIGHTS OVER TO OUR FILE, ITEM
NUMBER TWO, SB 1075. SENATOR
BRADFORD, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU
GOT THAT SPECIAL TREATMENT, BUT
YOU DID. AND SO, THE SB 1075
FILE ITEM NUMBER TWO
RECOMMENDATION IS Dð PASS TO
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS.
SENATOR BRADFORD, WHEN YOU'RE
READY, PLEASE, YOU CAN OPEN UP.
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. AND I WANT
TO THANK OUR BANKING CHAIR,
SENATOR LAMONT, FOR ALLOWING ME
TO GO BEFORE HER SB 1075, WHICH
WILL ESTABLISH BASIC CONSUMER
PROTECTIONS FOR CALIFORNIANS WHO
ARE MEMBERS OF STATE CHARTERED
CREDIT UNIONS, SUCH AS MYSELF.
1075 WILL CREATE A NEW AND
NECESSARY SAFEGUARDS FOR
OVERDRAFT AND NONSUFFICIENT FUND
FEES, CAPPING THEM AT $14 OR AN
AMOUNT SET BY THE CONSUMER
FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU,
WHICHEVER IS LOWER. STARTING
JANUARY ONE, 2026, THIS BILL
REQUIRES CREDIT UNIONS TO NOTIFY
MEMBERS WHENEVER AN OVERDRAFT OR
A NON-SUFFICIENT FUND FEE IS
CHARGED TO THEIR ACCOUNT BY NO
LATER THAN THE NEXT BUSINESS
DAY. I HAVE WORKED CLOSELY WITH
THE CREDIT UNIONS TO ADDRESS
THEIR ISSUES AROUND WORKABILITY
OF THE THREE DAY GRACE PERIOD,
WHILE PROVIDING BASIC CONSUMER
PROTECTIONS AS A RESULT OF
CREDIT, UNIONS HAVE REMOVED
THEIR OPPOSITION OVERDRAFT AND
NONSUFFICIENT FUND FEES
DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECT THOSE
WHO CAN AFFORD THEM THE LEAST,
THE CFPB ESTIMATES 80% OF
OVERDRAFT FEES COME FROM JUST 9%
OF ACCOUNT HOLDERS. INDUSTRY
WIDE DATA FROM THE FIRST EVER
ANNUAL REPORT ON INCOME FROM
NRS, F AND OVERDRAFT FEES WAS
RELEASED ON MARCH OF LAST YEAR.
THE REPORT REVEALED THAT 28
STATE CHARTERED CREDIT UNIONS
GENERATE 40% OR MORE OF THEIR
NET INCOME FROM THESE FEES.
ADDITIONALLY, SIX CREDIT UNIONS
GENERATE MORE THAN 100% OF THEIR
NET INCOME FROM THESE FEES.
CURRENTLY, THERE'S NO LIMIT ON
HOW MUCH A CREDIT UNION CAN
CHARGE FOR THESE FEES, AND RIGHT
NOW, SOME CREDIT UNION MEMBERS
ARE OVERDRAFT BY JUST $1 AND GET
HIT WITH A $35 FEE. ALTHOUGH
OVERDRAFT IS VIEWED AS A
FINANCIAL TOOL BY CREDIT UNIONS,
THESE FEES ARE INHERENTLY
HARMFUL AND OFTEN IMPACT
FINANCIALLY VULNERABLE
COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT
CALIFORNIA THE MOST. WE'RE NOT
ALONE IN TACKLING THIS ISSUE.
THE CFPB IS CONSIDERING A RULE
TO CAP THESE FEES BETWEEN $3 AND
$14, BUT ONLY FOR INSTITUTIONS
THAT HAVE $10 BILLION IN ASSETS
OR MORE, WHICH IS ONLY TWO
CREDIT UNIONS IN THE STATE.
1075, WOULD MAKE CALIFORNIA TAKE
THE LEAD IN ESTABLISHING BASIC
CONSUMER PROTECTIONS FOR
MEMBERS. AND I'M HERE TO TESTIFY
IN SUPPORT IS MISS LAWYER WITH,
RISE ECONOMY. AND SENATOR, IF
YOU WOULD GIVE US THE ABILITY.
QUORUMS ARE SO PRECIOUS AROUND
HERE THAT THEY ARE AND WE ARE
ABLE TO ESTABLISH ONE RIGHT NOW.
SO IF WE CAN, WOULD YOU PLEASE
CALL ROLL SECRETARY GRAYSON HERE
. CHEN HERE. DIXON, HERE. FONG,
HERE. CORA MAIENSCHEIN.
PETRIE-NORRIS BLANCA RUBIO.
SORIA. HERE SO WE DO NOW HAVE A
QUORUM, AND, YOU MAY BEGIN AS
WITNESS. GOOD AFTERNOON, MISTER
CHAIR MEMBERS ANNA LAWLER HERE
TODAY ON BEHALF OF RISE ECONOMY,
A COALITION OF ORGANIZATIONS
WORKING STATEWIDE TO ELIMINATE
THE HISTORIC BARRIERS FOR BLACK,
LATINX AND OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR
WHO HAVE FACED FINANCIAL
HARDSHIPS IN BUILDING
INTERGENERATIONAL WEALTH.
OVERDRAFT AND NONSUFFICIENT FUND
FEES PENALIZE THE WORKING POOR
AND FINANCIALLY VULNERABLE
HOUSEHOLDS THAT LIVE PAYCHECK TO
PAYCHECK. DATA FROM THE CONSUMER
FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU
SHOWS THAT THESE FEES ARE
DISPROPORTIONATELY PAID BY THOSE
WHO HAVE LESS CASH ON HAND IN
THE FIRST PLACE. ALMOST HALF OF
HOUSEHOLDS FALLING INTO
OVERDRAFT REPORTED THAT THEIR
MOST RECENT OVERDRAFT OCCURRED
ON A TRANSACTION OF $50 OR LESS.
EXPENSIVE AND EXCESSIVE CHARGES
CAN MAKE DIFFICULT ECONOMIC
CONDITIONS WORSE AND CAN LEAD TO
ACCOUNT CLOSURES OR NEGATIVE
CREDIT REPORT THAT MAKES OPENING
A NEW ACCOUNT EVEN MORE
DIFFICULT, LOCKING PEOPLE OUT OF
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AND INTO
FINANCIAL PRECARITY. IN 2022,
SENATOR LIMÓN AUTHORED SB 1415,
WHICH REQUIRED STATE CHARTERED
BANKS AND CREDIT UNIONS TO
REPORT REVENUES FROM JUNK FEES.
THE FIRST REPORT, ISSUED IN
2023, WAS STARTLING, SHOWING
THAT WORKING CALIFORNIANS PAID
STATE CHARTERED INSTITUTIONS
JUST OVER $322 MILLION IN THESE
FEES IN ANALYZING THE DATA IN
THAT REPORT, WE NOTED THAT
CREDIT UNIONS REPORTED HIGHER
PERCENTAGES OF INCOME EARNED
FROM OVERDRAFT AND
NON-SUFFICIENT FUND FEES THAN
BANKS. THE FINDINGS FROM THIS
REPORT POINT TO A CLEAR NEED FOR
GREATER REGULATORY OVERSIGHT AND
ACCOUNTABILITY. IT'S HARD TO SEE
HOW RELYING SO HEAVILY ON THESE
FEES SERVE CREDIT UNIONS,
MEMBERS OR COMMUNITIES. WHILE
THERE IS MORE WORK TO BE DONE TO
PROTECT CONSUMERS FROM THESE
CHARGES AND WE'RE DISAPPOINTED
THE GRACE PERIOD HAD TO BE
REMOVED BY LIMITING THE FEES AND
OBLIGATING CREDIT UNIONS TO BE
TRANSPARENT ABOUT THESE CHARGES.
SB 1075 IS AN IMPORTANT STEP IN
THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND WE
RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR YOUR I
VOTE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR
TESTIMONY. DO WE HAVE OTHER
WITNESSES IN THE ROOM? SIMPLY
STEP FORWARD. PLEASE STATE YOUR
NAME, ORGANIZATION AND POSITION.
GOOD AFTERNOON. GOOD AFTERNOON.
DANNY CANDLE KAISER, ON BEHALF
OF THE CALIFORNIA LOW INCOME
CONSUMER COALITION IN SUPPORT
CHRIS MYERS WITH THE CALIFORNIA
SCHOOL EMPLOYEES ASSOCIATION AND
SUPPORT DESIREE NGUYEN FROM
EBCLC IN STRONG SUPPORT. THANK
YOU SO MUCH. ANY OTHER WITNESSES
IN THE ROOM WOULD LIKE TO STEP
FORWARD IN SUPPORT? WE DO HAVE A
LATECOMER HERE. HE IS. MR.
CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS ROBERT
HARRELL WITH THE CONSUMER
FEDERATION OF CALIFORNIA. WE
TECHNICALLY HAVE A SUPPORT, IF
AMENDED POSITION ON THE BILL.
OUR VIEW ON OVERDRAFT, WHICH THE
AUTHOR IS WELL AWARE OF, IS THE
BEST OVERDRAFT, IS ONE THAT
NEVER HAPPENS. AND THE DATA IS
PRETTY CLEAR THAT MANY OF THESE
GET CLEARED UP VERY QUICKLY. SO
THANK YOU. THANK YOU, THANK YOU
SO VERY MUCH. ANY OTHER
WITNESSES IN SUPPORT? SEEING
NONE, WE WILL NOW GO TO
WITNESSES IN OPPOSITION OR
POSSIBLY EVEN NEUTRAL, DO WE
HAVE ANY WITNESSES THAT WOULD
LIKE TO STEP FORWARD, PLEASE?
GOOD AFTERNOON, CHAIR AND
MEMBERS, ROBERT WILSON,
CALIFORNIA CREDIT UNION LEAGUE.
WE ARE NEUTRAL ON THE BILL WITH
THE MOST RECENT AMENDMENTS. I'D
LIKE TO THANK THE AUTHOR AND THE
STAFF. THANK YOU. VERY GOOD.
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH. ANY
OTHER WITNESSES IN OPPOSITION OR
NEUTRAL? SEEING NONE, WE'LL
BRING IT TO THE COMMITTEE.
COMMITTEE QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS?
ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? WE DO
HAVE A MOTION FROM VICE CHAIR
CHIN, AND WE HAVE A SECOND BY,
SIMILAR MEMBER FONG. ANY
QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? SEEING
NONE. LET'S GO BACK TO THE
SENATOR. WOULD YOU LIKE TO
CLOSE, THIS IS STRAIGHTFORWARD
CONSUMER PROTECTION MEASURE AND
I RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR YOUR
VOTE. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.
SECRETARY, PLEASE CALL THE ROLL
ON THE BILL. SB 1075. THE MOTION
IS DUE. PASS AND REFERRED TO
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS.
GRAYSON. GRAYSON I CHEN. CHEN I
DIXON. DIXON I FONG FONG I KALRA
. MAIENSCHEIN. PETRIE-NORRIS.
BLANCO RUBIO I MARCO. RUBIO I
SORIA. SORRY. I ESSEX. VOTES YOU
DESERVE ALL THAT HARASSMENT. I
DO, I DO. THANK YOU, MR.
CHAIRMAN. BILL HAS SIX VOTES.
WE'LL KEEP THE ROLL OPEN FOR
ABSENT MEMBERS. THANK YOU, MR.
CHAIRMAN. MEMBERS THANK YOU SO
MUCH. AND NOW WE'LL GO BACK AND
FILE ORDER FILE ITEM NUMBER ONE
SB 1061. THE RECOMMENDATION IS
Dð PASS AS AMENDED TO COMMITTEE
ON APPROPRIATIONS. AND SENATOR
LOWMAN, YOU MAY OPEN WITH YOUR
STATEMENT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU,
CHAIR. AND MEMBERS, I WANT TO
THANK THE COMMITTEE FOR THEIR
WORK ON THIS, AND I WANT TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I ACCEPT THE
AMENDMENTS IN THE COMMITTEE
ANALYSIS. SB 1061 WILL REMOVE
MEDICAL DEBT FROM CONSUMER
CREDIT REPORTS, PROVIDING RELIEF
TO MILLIONS OF CALIFORNIANS
WHOSE CREDIT SCORES ARE
UNNECESSARILY HARMED BY THESE
DEBTS. WE KNOW THAT MEDICAL DEBT
DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS LOW
INCOME PEOPLE, BLACK AND LATINO
COMMUNITIES, AS WELL AS YOUNG
FOLKS. MEDICAL DEBT THAT IS
REPORTED TO CREDIT CREDIT
AGENCIES IS OFTEN INACCURATE.
WHETHER DUE TO BILLING ERRORS,
MISTAKES, REIMBURSEMENTS, OR
ONGOING DISPUTES WITH INSURANCE
PLANS. WHEN CONSUMER. WHEN A
CONSUMER DISCOVERS MEDICAL DEBT
ON THEIR CREDIT REPORT, THEY MAY
NOT KNOW WHY IT IS THERE OR WHO
TO CONTACT TO VERIFY THE AMOUNT
THAT IS ALLEGEDLY OWED AND
WHETHER IT IS ACCURATE. THE
PROCESS FOR DETERMINING WHETHER
AN ALLEGED MEDICAL DEBT IS
ACCURATELY REPORTED CAN BE TIME
CONSUMING AND FRUSTRATING, AS
THE CONSUMER GOES FROM CREDIT
BUREAU TO DEBT COLLECTOR TO
HEALTH CARE PROVIDER TO
INSURANCE COMPANY SEEKING TO
FIGURE OUT WHETHER A MISTAKE HAS
BEEN MADE AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR FIXING IT. MEDICAL DEBT IS
LESS PREDICTIVE OF A CONSUMER'S
WILLINGNESS AND ABILITY TO PAY
FUTURE CREDIT OBLIGATIONS THAN
OTHER FORMS OF CONSUMER DEBT.
SOME LENDERS AND CREDIT SCORING
MODELS HAVE COME TO REALIZE THAT
FALSE SIGNALS THE MEDICAL DEBT
CAN SEND, LEADING THEM TO REMOVE
MEDICAL DEBT FROM THEIR RISK
SCORING SYSTEM. THIS BILL
PROHIBITS MEDICAL DEBT FROM
BEING REPORTED TO CREDIT
AGENCIES, BUT IT DOES NOT
FORGIVE THE DEBT. THIS BILL DOES
NOT RELIEVE THE MANY BURDENS
ASSOCIATED WITH MEDICAL DEBT.
THE BILL DOES NOT FORGIVE DEBT,
NOR DOES IT RESTRICT COLLECTION
PRACTICES RELATED TO MEDICAL
DEBT. ON THE TOPIC OF DEBT
COLLECTORS, I KNOW THAT A COUPLE
OF LOBBYISTS REPRESENTING DEBT
COLLECTORS HAVE REQUESTED THAT
SOME OF, SOME FOLKS PUSH FOR
AMENDMENTS THAT EITHER CARVE
THEM OUT ALTOGETHER OR
SIGNIFICANTLY DELAY THE
APPLICATION OF THIS BILL FOR
CERTAIN TYPES OF MEDICAL DEBT IN
NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. I WANT TO I
WANT FOLKS TO UNDERSTAND THAT
PUSHING SUCH AMENDMENT IS
SIMILAR TO KILLING THE BILL. I
WILL MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS
BILL, SHOULD THIS MØT THIS
COMMITTEE MOVE THIS BILL FORWARD
AND THAT TREATS MEDICAL DEBT
DIFFERENTLY IF IT IS OWNED TO A
HOSPITAL VERSUS A MEDICAL DEBT
CREDIT CARD ISSUER, THE TYPE OF
POLICY IS NOT NECESSARILY
RESPONSIVE TO CONSUMERS. AND IT
ALSO IS NOT FAIR TO THE
HOSPITALS AND MEDICAL PROVIDERS
WHO HAVE EXTENDED PAYMENT PLANS
OR OTHER FORMS OF CREDIT TO
THEIR PATIENTS. AS EACH OF YOU
WEIGH YOUR DECISION ON WHETHER
TO SUPPORT THIS BILL OR NOT, I
HOPE THAT YOU'LL CONSIDER THE
BENEFITS THAT THIS BILL MOVES
FORWARD TO. MANY CALIFORNIANS,
AND ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT IT
DOESN'T FORGIVE THE DEBT, IT
SIMPLY JUST REMOVES IT FROM
CREDIT REPORTING. I HAVE NO
DOUBT THAT THE BENEFITS FAR
OUTWEIGH ANY OF THE COSTS
ASSOCIATED WITH THESE BILLS, AND
THEY'RE GOOD FOR OUR CONSUMERS.
WHILE THIS BILL DOES NOT SOLVE
ALL THE PROBLEMS WITH MEDICAL
DEBT, IT IS A START. REMOVING
MEDICAL DEBT FROM CREDIT REPORTS
WILL GIVE CONSUMERS A BETTER
CHANCE TO RESTORE THEIR
FINANCIAL HEALTH. TESTIFYING IN
SUPPORT TODAY IS SONIA HAYDEN, A
LOCAL SACRAMENTO RESIDENT WHO
WILL SHARE HER EXPERIENCE WITH
MEDICAL DEBT, SHOWING UP ON HER
CREDIT REPORT AS WELL AS KEVIN
REYES, A DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
FROM THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE WHO SPECIALIZES IN
CONSUMER PROTECTIONS IN HEALTH
CARE SETTINGS. THANK YOU SO
MUCH. WE HAVE TWO MINUTES EACH
FOR WITNESSES SPEAKING, HELLO,
CHAIR. AND MEMBERS, THANK YOU
FOR LETTING ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY
EXPERIENCE WITH MEDICAL DEBT. IN
OCTOBER 2021, I WAS INVOLVED IN
A MAJOR CAR ACCIDENT WHILE
DRIVING ON I-80 FROM SACRAMENTO
TO OAKLAND. THE ACCIDENT
HAPPENED AROUND 10 P.M. IN THE
EVENING, AND I WAS TAKEN BY
AMBULANCE TO THE ER IN
FAIRFIELD. LUCKILY I WAS OKAY,
BUT THEY KEPT ME THERE QUITE A
WHILE TO RUN SOME TESTS AND MAKE
SURE EVERYTHING WAS FINE. AS A
STATE WORKER I HAVE FULL
INSURANCE COVERAGE THROUGH WORK
SO THAT WAS AT LEAST ONE LESS
THING I HAD TO WORRY ABOUT. FAST
FORWARD A FEW YEARS LATER TO THE
SUMMER OF 2023. MY PARTNER AND I
MADE THE DECISION TO TRY AND BUY
OUR FIRST HOME WHILE APPLYING
FOR A LOAN, I WAS SURPRISED TO
DISCOVER MY CREDIT SCORE HAD
GONE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY DUE TO
AN UNPAID MYSTERY BILL. I CALLED
THE CREDIT COMPANY LISTED AND
DISCOVERED THAT THE HOSPITAL I
WAS TAKEN TO AFTER THE ACCIDENT
HAD CORRECTLY INCORRECT, HAD
CORRECTLY BILLED MY INSURANCE
FOR EVERYTHING EXCEPT ONE VERY
EXPENSIVE TEST THAT THEY HAD
DONE. I THINK IT WAS A SIMPLE
MISTAKE. THEY HAD SIMPLY
FORGOTTEN TO ADD MY INSURANCE
INFORMATION TO THAT ONE
PROCEDURE, AND HAD BILLED ME
INSTEAD, BUT I SOMEHOW NEVER
RECEIVED THE BILL. THIS WAS
INCREDIBLY STRESSFUL AT THE TIME
BECAUSE MY CREDIT SCORE
NEGATIVELY NEGATIVELY AFFECTED
OUR MORTGAGE RATE. AT A TIME
WHEN RATES WERE ALREADY AT AN
ALL TIME HIGH. I'VE SPENT HOURS
ON THE PHONE TRYING TO GET THIS
FIXED TO NO AVAIL.
REPRESENTATIVES AT THE INSURANCE
COMPANY HAVE TRIED TO HELP AS
HAVE THE CREDIT COMPANY. AS OF
NOW, THIS IS STILL SHOWING ON MY
CREDIT SCORE AND THERE APPEARS
TO BE NOT MUCH I CAN DO ABOUT
THAT. AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR
LETTING ME SPEAK IN FRONT OF YOU
TODAY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR
TESTIMONY. NEXT WITNESS. GOOD
AFTERNOON, MR. CHAIR, AND
COMMITTEE MEMBERS. MY NAME IS
ANTHONY LIU. I'M ACTUALLY WITH
THE OFFICE OF LEDGE AFFAIRS FOR
AG, ROB BONTA, AND I'M WITH MY
COLLEAGUE KEVIN REYES, WHO'S
FROM THE HEALTH RIGHTS AND
ACCESS SECTION, WE BOTH WILL BE
AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS,
MR. REYES IS A IS AN EXPERT ON,
ON, MEDICAL CREDIT CARDS AND
HEALTHCARE CONSUMER LOAN, I JUST
WANT TO START OUT BY THANKING
THE AUTHOR AND OUR COALITION OF
CONSUMER AND HEALTH ADVOCACY
ORGANIZATIONS FOR LEADING ON
THIS IMPORTANT LEGISLATION TO
PROTECT CALIFORNIANS FROM THE
HARMFUL IMPACTS OF MEDICAL DEBT,
BURDENING CONSUMER CREDIT
REPORTS, ESPECIALLY THE LOW
INCOME AND MARGINALIZED
COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MOST
IMPACTED BY THIS PERVASIVE
PROBLEM. MEDICAL DEBT OFTEN
COMES FROM UNEXPECTED,
UNPLANNED, AND UNAVOIDABLE
CIRCUMSTANCES UNRELATED TO
GENERAL FINANCIAL WELL-BEING,
AND CAN HAPPEN UNEXPECTEDLY TO
ANYONE. AND AS ILLUSTRATED BY
SONIA'S TESTIMONY, WHEN MEDICAL
DEBT IS REPORTED TO A CREDIT
REPORTING AGENCY, CAN UNFAIRLY
PREVENT A CONSUMER FROM GETTING
APPROVED FOR A LOAN, RENTING AN
APARTMENT OR BEING SELECTED FOR
A JOB. DATA SHOWS THAT PEOPLE
WITH MEDICAL DEBT ARE MORE
LIKELY TO SAY THE DEBT HAS
CAUSED THEM TO BE TURNED DOWN
FOR RENTAL HOUSING OR A
MORTGAGE, THAN PEOPLE WITH
STUDENT LOANS OR CREDIT CARD
DEBT. THIS INCREASES THEIR RISK
OF HOMELESSNESS OR BEING FORCED
TO LIVE IN SUBSTANDARD HOUSING.
WE KNOW THAT INCREASING NUMBERS
OF PEOPLE ARE DELAYING OR
SKIPPING ESSENTIAL MEDICAL
TREATMENT OUT OF FEAR OF
ACCUMULATING MEDICAL DEBT, WHICH
IS NOT AN UNREASONABLE FEAR
GIVEN THE HIGH COST OF HEALTH
CARE. SKIPPING HEALTHCARE, OF
COURSE, ONLY LEADS TO WORSE
HEALTH OUTCOMES AND CAN
EXACERBATE HEALTH INEQUITIES FOR
MINORITY OR LOW INCOME
COMMUNITIES. CALIFORNIA FAMILIES
SHOULD NOT BE FORCED TO SUFFER
FROM THE HARMFUL, UNNECESSARY
IMPACTS RESULTING FROM MEDICAL
DEBT DAMAGING THEIR CREDIT. SB
1061 ENACTS A VERY
STRAIGHTFORWARD SOLUTION TO THIS
PROBLEM BY PROHIBITING MEDICAL
DEBT FROM BEING REPORTED TO A
CONSUMER CREDIT REPORTING
AGENCIES. IF IT'S ENACTED,
CALIFORNIA WILL JOIN COLORADO
AND NEW YORK AS WELL AS A
HANDFUL OF OTHER STATES THAT
HAVE PASSED LAWS THIS SESSION
AND TOGETHER HELP LEAD THE
COUNTRY TO A MORE RATIONAL AND
JUST APPROACH. ADDRESSING
MEDICAL DEBT. WE THANK YOU AND
URGE YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT. THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TESTIMONY.
AND ARE THERE ANY OTHERS IN THE
ROOM IN SUPPORT? SIMPLY STEP
FORWARD. NAME. ORGANIZATION.
POSITION. ROBERT HARRELL WITH
THE CONSUMER FEDERATION OF
CALIFORNIA, ONE OF THE
CO-SPONSORS OF THE BILL. GOOD
AFTERNOON, MR. CHAIR AND
COMMITTEE MEMBERS, KATIE VAN
DINES WITH HEALTH ACCESS
CALIFORNIA, ALSO A PROUD
CO-SPONSOR OF THIS MEASURE.
THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON,
CARMEN CÁC WITH THE CALIFORNIA
NURSES ASSOCIATION. ANOTHER
PROUD CO-SPONSOR OF THE BILL,
DANNY KENDALL KAISER WITH THE
NATIONAL CONSUMER LAW CENTER, AS
WELL AS THE CALIFORNIA LOW
INCOME CONSUMER COALITION, BOTH
PROUD CO-SPONSORS. RACHEL BOGERT
WITH ACLU CALIFORNIA ACTION AND
SUPPORT OF THIS BILL, KELLY
BROOKS, ON BEHALF OF THE SANTA
CLARA COUNTY BOARD OF
SUPERVISORS AND SUPPORT. DESIREE
NGUYEN, NORTH OF EAST BAY
COMMUNITY LAW CENTER IN STRONG
SUPPORT. REBECCA MARCUS, ON
BEHALF OF CALPIRG, ONE OF THE
CO-SPONSORS, AS WELL AS THE
CONSUMER PROTECTION POLICY
CENTER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF SAN
DIEGO SCHOOL OF LAW IN SUPPORT.
THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, BETH
MALINOVSKY, THE SEIU CALIFORNIA
IN SUPPORT. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR.
CHAIR, AND COMMITTEE MEMBERS.
BRIAN MIRAMONTEZ WITH THE
AMERICAN FEDERATION OF STATE
COUNTY MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES AND
SUPPORT. GOOD AFTERNOON. ELMAR
LOZADA WITH THE CALIFORNIA
CALIFORNIA LABOR FEDERATION IN
SUPPORT. THANK YOU. MARCIE
SIDRA, ON BEHALF OF THE COUNTY
OF LOS ANGELES IN SUPPORT. THANK
YOU. NHIÀU Dð ON BEHALF OF THE
WESTERN CENTER ON LAW AND
POVERTY IN SUPPORT. THANK YOU SO
VERY MUCH. ANY OTHERS IN
SUPPORT? SEEING NONE COMING
FORWARD, WE WILL NOW GO TO
OPPOSITION AND PRIMARY
OPPOSITION. PLEASE STEP FORWARD.
TO THE TABLES UP HERE AND YOU
WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES EACH TO
SPEAK. YOU MAY BEGIN WHEN YOU'RE
READY. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR.
CHAIR. MEMBERS MELANIE CUEVAS
WITH THE CALIFORNIA BANKERS
ASSOCIATION. SORRY. THERE YOU GO
. OKAY, APPRECIATE THE
COMMITTEE'S VERY NECESSARY AND
HELPFUL AMENDMENTS, ESPECIALLY
REMOVING SECURED DEBTS FROM THE
DEFINITION OF MEDICAL DEBT. AND
APPRECIATE THE AUTHORS
WILLINGNESS TO ACCEPT THOSE
AMENDMENTS, OUR CONTINUED
OPPOSITION HINGES ON THE
DEFINITION OF MEDICAL DEBT. WE
CONTINUE TO ASSERT THAT THE
DEFINITION SHOULD ALIGN WITH THE
CFPB'S PROPOSED RULE DESPITE THE
HELPFUL AMENDMENTS. TODAY, SB
1061 CONTINUES TO INCLUDE
DEFERRED INTEREST CREDIT CARDS
IN ITS DEFINITION OF MEDICAL
DEBT. THESE ARE PRODUCTS THAT
THE PROPONENTS WILL REFER TO AS
MEDICAL CREDIT CARDS. HOWEVER,
THESE CARDS ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE TO
MEDICAL PRODUCTS, SERVICES, OR
DEVICES. THEY MAY BE USED TO
PURCHASE A WIDE VARIETY OF
ITEMS, INCLUDING VETERINARY
SERVICES, FUNERAL SERVICES,
ELECTIVE COSMETIC PROCEDURES,
ESTHETIC SPA TREATMENTS, AND
THEN RUN OF THE MILL PRODUCTS AT
PHARMACIES, THESE DEFERRED
INTEREST CARD PRODUCTS ALSO
FUNCTION LIKE OTHER CREDIT CARD
PRODUCTS, IN THAT YOU NEED TO
APPLY AND QUALIFY TO ACCESS THIS
PRODUCT. IT'S NOT A SUBPRIME
PRODUCT FOR A LOW INCOME
CONSUMER. CREDITORS ALSO HAVE NO
LINE OF SIGHT INTO ITEMIZED
TRANSACTION LEVEL INFORMATION,
AND THE MEASURE IS SILENT ON HOW
CREDITORS SHOULD PARSE OUT WHICH
TRANSACTIONS, OR EVEN PORTIONS
THEREOF, QUALIFY AS MEDICAL DEBT
AND THEREFORE ARE NOT REPORTABLE
TO A CREDIT REPORTING AGENCY. I
THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO
NOTE THAT IN THE EVENT THAT THE
DEBT IS REPORTED TO A CREDIT
REPORTING AGENCY, SECTION 1785
.27 OF THE BILL VOIDS THAT DEBT.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE DEBT IS
FORGIVEN WHEN THE VOIGTS ABILITY
IS APPLIED. IN CLOSING, WE AGREE
WITH PROPONENTS THAT MEDICAL
DEBT IS UNLIKE OTHER TYPES OF
DEBT DUE TO THE EMERGENCY. OFTEN
ONE TIME NATURE OF THAT DEBT,
AND WE CONTINUE TO OPPOSE THIS
MEASURE UNLESS THE DEFINITION OF
MEDICAL DEBT IS AMENDED TO MEAN
THOSE DEBTS THAT ARE OWED
DIRECTLY TO A MEDICAL PROVIDER
OR TO A MEDICAL FACILITY. THANK
YOU. CHAIR GRAYSON AND MEMBERS
OF THE BANKING AND FINANCE
COMMITTEE. MY NAME IS DAVID REED
AND I SERVE AS GENERAL COUNSEL
TO THE RECEIVABLES MANAGEMENT
ASSOCIATION. INTERNATIONAL RMI
IS A NONPROFIT TRADE ASSOCIATION
WHICH REPRESENTS THE FINANCIAL
SERVICES INDUSTRY. I WANT TO
FIRST THANK THE AUTHOR. AND THE
COMMITTEE, FOR THE PROPOSED
AMENDMENTS TO SB 1061 THAT ARE
BEING CONSIDERED TODAY. THEY ARE
DEFINITELY A STEP IN THE RIGHT
DIRECTION. AND I AND DOES
ADDRESS ONE OF REYES REQUESTS.
RMI CONTINUES TO FAVOR THE
FEDERAL CONSUMER FINANCIAL
PROTECTION BUREAUS DEFINITION OF
MEDICAL DEBT THAT IS USED IN ITS
JUNE 11TH PROPOSED RULE TO BAN
MEDICAL BILLS FROM CREDIT
REPORTS. THE CFPB LIMITED ITS
DEFINITION TO DEBT OWED TO A
HOSPITAL OR MEDICAL PROVIDER.
THE CFPB DID NOT CHOOSE AN
APPROACH THAT INCLUDED SOME DEBT
ON SOME CREDIT CARDS, AS DOES SB
1061. THE CFPB SPENT YEARS
DEVELOPING ITS MEDICAL DEBT RULE
AND INDICATED IN THE AGENCY'S
COMMENTS THAT A BROADER
DEFINITION OF MEDICAL DEBT
SIMILAR TO THIS BILL WAS NOT
FEASIBLE. WE HAVE HEARD FROM
SOME PROPONENTS THIS DESCRIBE
THE CFPB'S APPROACH AS BEING THE
FLOOR, NOT THE CEILING. HOWEVER,
WE QUESTION IF THE CFPB BELIEVED
A BROADER APPROACH WAS NOT
FEASIBLE. HOW CAN A STATE MAKE
IT FEASIBLE AS A TRADE
ASSOCIATION THAT REPRESENTS
BUSINESS INTERESTS IN ALL 50
STATES? RMI HAS TO ADVOCATE FOR
UNIFORMITY IN THE LAW. WE NEED
TO FOSTER AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE
BUSINESS SUCCESS AND CONSUMER
PROTECTION ARE NOT ANTITHETICAL
TO ONE ANOTHER. WE NEED AN
ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY CAN BOTH
EXIST. THE CFPB MEDICAL DEBT
RULE IS THAT ENVIRONMENT, AND WE
NEED TO REPLICATE THAT
ENVIRONMENT IN CALIFORNIA. WE
FEEL THAT THIS IS A REASONABLE
REQUEST GIVEN THAT SEVERAL OF
THE BILL'S SPONSORS ARE ARDENT
SUPPORTERS OF THE CFPB RULE.
FINALLY, WE CONTINUE TO OPPOSE
THE VOIDING LANGUAGE CONTAINED
IN THE BILL AND WOULD ASK THAT
THE BILL BE AMENDED TO ALLOW THE
BUSINESS COMMUNITY 15 DAYS TO
CURE ACCIDENTAL ERRORS. FOR
THESE REASONS, RMI REMAINS IN
OPPOSITION TO THE BILL. HOWEVER,
WE DO AGREE WITH THE AUTHORS
GOAL ON, VOID OR ON ON MEDICAL
DEBT AS IT RELATES TO, CREDIT
REPORTS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO
VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TESTIMONY.
OTHERS IN OPPOSITION IN THE
ROOM, PLEASE STEP FORWARD. STATE
YOUR NAME, POSITION OR NAME.
ORGANIZATION AND POSITION. THANK
YOU. CLIFF BURKE FOR THE
CALIFORNIA ASSOCIATION OF
COLLECTORS REMAIN CONCERNED
ABOUT THE VOIDING LANGUAGE.
THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR.
CHAIR. AND MEMBERS. ROBERT
MURRAY, CALIFORNIA CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE. OPPOSED. THANK YOU.
SCOTT. GOVERNOR, AMERICAN
FINANCIAL SERVICES ASSOCIATION
AND THE CALIFORNIA FINANCIAL
SERVICES ASSOCIATION. INDIRA
MCDONALD HERE ON BEHALF OF THE
CALIFORNIA MORTGAGE BANKERS
ASSOCIATION, WE WANT TO THANK
THE AUTHOR AND THE COMMITTEE FOR
THE AMENDMENTS AND THE ANALYSIS,
WHICH DO ADDRESS THE ISSUES
RELATED TO THE SECURED DEBT AND
OUR CONCERNS WITH THAT REGARD.
THANK YOU. COURTNEY JENSEN, ON
BEHALF OF PRA GROUP, IN OPPOSING
THIS AMENDED POSITION. THANK YOU
. HI, MARK FAROOQ ON BEHALF OF
THE CALIFORNIA HOSPITAL
ASSOCIATION, BASED ON THE
AMENDMENTS ACCEPTED, WE WILL BE
REMOVING OUR OPPOSITION. THANK
YOU TO THE AUTHOR AND THANK YOU
TO THE COMMITTEE STAFF AND THE
SPONSORS AS WELL. THANK YOU,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
YOUR TESTIMONY. ANY OTHERS IN
OPPOSITION OR POSSIBLY NEUTRAL?
SEEING NONE OTHERS, WE'LL BRING
IT BACK TO THE COMMITTEE FOR
QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS OR BOTH.
THANK YOU. ASSEMBLY MEMBER
RUBIO. YES, SORRY ABOUT THAT.
THANK YOU. I WANT TO THANK THE
AUTHOR AND THE, THE BOTH
COALITIONS FOR THEIR WORK. I
UNDERSTAND THERE'S STILL SOME
OUTSTANDING CONVERSATIONS TO BE
HAD, AND I TRUST THAT THE CHAIR
HAS ADDRESSED THOSE. AND I HOPE
YOU CONTINUE WORKING WITH WITH
BOTH SIDES, TO GET THAT
ADDRESSED. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
YEAH, WE HAVE, THIS IS THE FIFTH
POLICY COMMITTEE, AND WE HAVE
TAKEN AMENDMENTS IN EVERY
SINGLE, COMMITTEE. SO WE WILL
CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION.
SENATE-TV MEMBER SORIA YEAH, I
ALSO JUST WANTED TO MAKE SOME
COMMENTS AND OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.
RELATED TO, FAMILIES, THE
WORKING FAMILIES I KNOW IN MY
DISTRICT THAT I HEAR MANY TIMES,
STORIES THAT LIKE, WERE SHARED,
EARLIER TODAY BY THE WITNESS, I
DO, KIND OF EMPATHIZE WITH THE,
THE CREDIT CARD DEBT ISSUES, AND
I THINK THAT THERE'S SOME WORK
TO BE DONE THERE. SO I'M HOPING
THAT I KNOW OBVIOUSLY, YOU'VE
SAID YOU'VE TAKEN ALREADY
SIGNIFICANT AMENDMENTS. I AM
GLAD TO SEE, YOU KNOW, OTHER
FOLKS LIKE THE HOSPITAL
ASSOCIATION, GO TO NEUTRAL, AND
THEIR CONCERNS BEING ADDRESSED.
AND SO, LOOKING FORWARD TO
SUPPORTING THIS, BUT
UNDERSTANDING OBVIOUSLY THERE
THERE ARE SOME DETAILS TO BE
WORKED OUT. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER
QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS FROM
COMMITTEE MEMBERS SEEING NONE
I'LL MAKE A MOTION. SECOND, SO
WE DO HAVE A MOTION FROM
ASSEMBLYMEMBER SORIA. SECOND
FROM MEMBER RUBIO AND A CLOSING
STATEMENT FROM THE AUTHOR. I
RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR AN AYE
VOTE. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR
YOUR BREVITY, I DO WANT TO I DO
WANT TO SAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH
FOR WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE
COMMITTEE AND MYSELF IN,
AMENDMENTS THAT YOU HAVE
ACCEPTED. YOUR, SB 1061 DOES
TRULY ADDRESS SOME VERY REAL
LIFE ISSUES, AND I THINK
EXTENSIVE CONVERSATIONS HAVE
PROVEN THE REALNESS OF THE
ISSUE. BUT IT'S ALSO REVEALED
THE COMPLEXITY OF THE ISSUE THAT
IS BEFORE US. SO I JUST
ENCOURAGE YOU TO CONTINUE YOUR
100% RUN WITH TAKING AMENDMENTS
IN EVERY COMMITTEE. THANKS, AND
I ENCOURAGE YOU TO HAVE YOUR
CONVERSATIONS, AS NEEDED. AND I
KNOW, AND HAVE FULL TRUST THAT
YOU'LL APPROPRIATELY DEAL WITH
THOSE. SO WITH THAT, WOULD YOU
PLEASE CALL ROLL ON THE BILL, SB
1061, THE MOTION IS DUE PASS AS
AMENDED AND REFERRED TO
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS.
GRAYSON. GRAYSON. I CHEN. DIXON.
NO. DIXON NO. FONG. FONG I CORRE
CORRE I MAIENSCHEIN.
PETRIE-NORRIS. BLANCA. RUBIO
MARCO. RUBIO I SORIA. SORIA AYE.
THE BILL HAS FIVE VOTES. THE
BILL HAS FIVE VOTES. AND WE WILL
KEEP THE ROLL OPEN FOR ABSENT
MEMBERS. AND, WITH FIVE VOTES,
IT DOES GET OUT, BUT WE'LL KEEP
THE ROLL OPEN FOR ABSENT MEMBERS
. FILE. YES, WE DO. WELCOME,
SUBSTITUTE ASSEMBLY MEMBER KALRA
HERE. HE'S VERY EXCITED TO BE
RECOGNIZED. SO HERE HE IS. HE IS
HERE, WE WILL GO TO FILE ITEM
NUMBER FOUR, THE AUTHOR IS HERE,
SO WITH THAT, PLEASE, SENATOR
GLAZER, SB 1482 DO PASS TO
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS.
SENATOR GLAZER, WHENEVER YOU'RE
READY, YOU MAY OPEN WITH YOUR
OPENING STATEMENT. GOOD
AFTERNOON. GOOD AFTERNOON. THANK
YOU TO THE CHAIR AND MEMBERS FOR
ALLOWING ME TO PRESENT 1482
TODAY. I WANT TO PARTICULARLY
THANK THE COMMITTEE STAFF FOR
THEIR HELP AND WORK ON THIS BILL
. THIS IS A COUPLE OF YEARS IN
THE MAKING, AS SMALL BUSINESS
BORROWERS HAVE INCREASINGLY
STRUGGLED JUST, AS SMALL
BUSINESS BORROWERS HAVE
INCREASINGLY STRUGGLED TO ACCESS
TRADITIONAL BANK LOANS, THEY'VE
RESORTED TO ALTERNATIVE FORMS OF
FINANCING TO START, MAINTAIN AND
GROW THEIR BUSINESSES.
ALTERNATIVE FINANCING PRODUCTS
INCLUDE SALES BASED FINANCING
LIKE MERCHANT ADVANCES,
FACTORING, LEASE FINANCING, ALL
OF WHICH ARE STRUCTURED IN WAYS
THAT DO NOT MAKE THEM QUOTE
UNQUOTE, LOANS. UNFORTUNATELY,
GAPS IN CALIFORNIA'S COMMERCIAL
FINANCING LAW HAVE ALLOWED SOME
BAD ACTORS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
SMALL BUSINESS BORROWERS, OFTEN
BAD ACTORS STEER SMALL BUSINESS
BORROWERS INTO HIGH COST
FINANCING SO THEY CAN GET A
BETTER COMMISSION. BORROWERS
ALSO ARE ENCOURAGED TO SIGN
FINANCING CONTRACTS WITH CLAUSES
THAT WAIVE THEIR RIGHT TO LEGAL
REPRESENTATION AND PROPER COURT
PROCEDURE. SB 1482 REQUIRES THE
STATE TO REGISTER INDIVIDUALS
WHO PROVIDE BROKERAGE SERVICES
IN COMMERCIAL FINANCING, AS WELL
AS COMMERCIAL FINANCING
PROVIDERS. THE REGISTRATION
REQUIRED UNDER THIS BILL WOULD
PROVIDE THE DEPARTMENT OF
FINANCIAL PROTECTION AND
INNOVATION A WINDOW INTO THE
PRACTICES OF THOSE WHO WORK IN
THIS AREA. IT ALSO CLOSES
LOOPHOLES IN OUR CURRENT LAW BY
PROHIBITING ANY ACTION THAT CAN
BE CONSTRUED AS A QUOTE,
CONFESSION OF JUDGMENT, UNQUOTE,
WHICH PROHIBITS BORROWERS FROM
LEGAL REPRESENTATION IF THEY
DEFAULT ON A LOAN. WITH ME TO
TESTIFY TODAY, I HAVE LEWIS
CADIZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS LENDING
COALITION, AND HEIDI PICKMAN,
VICE PRESIDENT OF ENGAGEMENT AND
EXTERNAL RELATIONSHIPS AT THE
CALIFORNIA ASSOCIATION OF MICRO
ENTERPRISES AND MICRO
ENTERPRISE. OPPORTUNITY, ALSO
KNOWN AS CAMEO. THANK YOU BOTH
FOR BEING HERE AND RESPECTFULLY
ASKED FOR AN AYE VOTE FROM THE
COMMITTEE. THANK YOU SO MUCH,
SENATOR. AND WE WILL HAVE
WITNESSES SPEAK TWO MINUTES
EACH. THANK YOU. CHAIR GRAYSON,
VICE CHAIR CHEN AND MEMBERS OF
THE COMMITTEE. I'M HEIDI
PICKMAN, VP OF ENGAGEMENT AND
EXTERNAL RELATIONS FOR CAMEO
NETWORK, A STATEWIDE ASSOCIATION
OF BUSINESS SERVICE PROVIDERS
AND COMMUNITY LENDERS AND A
STRONG SUPPORTER OF SB 1482. WE
COMMEND SENATOR SENATOR GLAZER,
THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE, AND
GOVERNOR NEWSOM FOR LEADING THE
COUNTRY IN RESPONSIBLE SMALL
BUSINESS LENDING PRACTICES. SB
1482 CONTINUES THAT LEADERSHIP.
IT DOES TWO THINGS REGULATES
PREDATORY PRACTICE BY BROKERS
AND LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD FOR
LOAN AND NON LOAN PRODUCTS.
SMALL BUSINESSES NEED ACCESS TO
CAPITAL, BE IT A LOAN OR OTHER
NON LOAN PRODUCT. THE REGULATORY
FRAMEWORK SHOULDN'T DISTINGUISH
THE DIFFERENCE AND SHOULD TREAT
NON LOAN PRODUCTS THE SAME AS
LOAN PRODUCTS. TAKE FOR EXAMPLE
A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN YORBA
LINDA WHO ENDED UP WITH A
MERCHANT CASH ADVANCE FOR
75,000. HE WAS REPAYING $16,500
A MONTH. THAT ALMOST TANKED HIS
BUSINESS. FORTUNATELY, HE WAS
ABLE TO REFINANCE WITH A MISSION
DRIVEN COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
FINANCIAL INSTITUTION FOR MORE
SUSTAINABLE $2,500 A MONTH. NOT
ALL SMALL BUSINESSES CAN DO
THAT. SB 1482 TAKES AWAY THE
UNFAIR ADVANTAGE THAT
UNREGULATED NON LOAN FINANCING
COMPANIES HAVE OVER REGULATED
LENDERS. BY PROVIDING ALL TYPES
OF SMALL BUSINESS FINANCE
COMPANIES WITH THE SAME RULES TO
PLAY BY A HALLMARK OF MARKET
COMPETITION. AND ADDITIONALLY,
THE BILL PREVENTS SEVERAL OTHER
PREDATORY PRACTICES THAT THE
SENATOR MENTIONED. CREATING A
COMPETITIVE MARKET FOR SMALL
BUSINESS FINANCING WILL CATALYZE
GOOD LENDING TO SMALL
BUSINESSES. THANKFUL I
RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR YOUR. I
VOTE. HONORABLE MEMBERS. MY NAME
IS SONIA. YEAH, GREAT. HONORABLE
MEMBERS. MY NAME IS LUIS PECH.
I'M THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
THE RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS LENDING
COALITION, AN ORGANIZATION OF
OVER 1000 SMALL BUSINESS GROUPS,
FOR PROFIT FINANCING PROVIDERS,
NONPROFIT CDFIS, CIVIL RIGHTS
AND COMMUNITY GROUPS ACROSS OUR
FOR PROFIT AND NONPROFIT
MEMBERS. MANY DIFFERENCES. THEY
WERE UNANIMOUS IN URGING YOUR
SUPPORT FOR THIS BILL. TO
SUMMARIZE WHY, I'LL QUOTE I'LL
QUOTE FOR YOU AN ARTICLE FROM
THE TRADE PRESS OF THE BROKERS
AND FINANCE AND HIGH PRICED
FINANCING COMPANIES THAT HAVE
CHOSEN TO OPPOSE THE BILL.
HERE'S THE QUOTE. HERE'S THE
KICKER. THE TRADE PRESS WARNED
IF THIS BILL BECOMES LAW,
PROVIDERS AND BROKERS OF
MERCHANT CASH ADVANCES,
FACTORING AND LEASE FINANCING
WILL HAVE TO REGISTER WITH THE
DFP, THE TRADE PRESS WARNED.
THAT'S RIGHT. NO MORE FLYING
UNDER THE RADAR. SO WHY WOULD
THEY WANT TO KEEP FLYING UNDER
THE RADAR? AS FOR BROKERS,
MORTGAGE BROKERS IN CALIFORNIA
ARE ALREADY REQUIRED TO BE
LICENSED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.
THEY'RE, THEY'RE GIVING
FINANCIAL ADVICE. BUT WHEN SOME
LOST THEIR LICENSES FOR BAD
PRACTICES, THEY CONTRIBUTED TO
THE SUBPRIME MORTGAGE CRISIS.
THEY JUST MOVED OVER TO
BROKERING SMALL BUSINESS
FINANCING WHERE THERE ARE JUST
NO LEGAL STANDARDS. AND THEY'RE
CONTINUING SOME OF THOSE SAME
BAD PRACTICES TODAY, STEERING
BORROWERS INTO FINANCING THAT
PAYS THE BROKER THE HIGHEST FEE,
EVEN WHEN IT'S THE WORST FOR THE
BORROWER. AS FOR FINANCING
COMPANIES, CURRENTLY THERE'S NO
OVERSIGHT FOR MERCHANT CASH
ADVANCE AND OTHER NON LOAN
FINANCING. EVEN IF A GIVEN
FINANCING HAS A CFL LICENSE THAT
COVERS THEIR LENDING AND THEY
HAVE A MONEY TRANSMITTING
LICENSE THAT COVERS THEIR MONEY
TRANSMITTING, IT DOESN'T COVER
THE NON LOAN FINANCING
ACTIVITIES THEY OFFER. THIS
REGISTRATION WOULD HELP CLOSE
THAT LOOPHOLE. TODAY. IF A SMALL
BUSINESS IS VICTIMIZED BY AN
UNREGISTERED BAD ACTOR BROKER
FINANCING COMPANY, THEY DON'T
HAVE ANYWHERE TO TURN. THAT'S
BAD FOR SMALL BUSINESSES. IT'S
BAD FOR OUR ECONOMY AND IT'S BAD
FOR THE RESPONSIBLE BROKERS. AND
FINANCING COMPANIES THAT WANT TO
SEE THE MARKET CLEANED UP. THANK
YOU. THANK YOU FOR YOUR
TESTIMONY. ARE THERE ADDITIONAL
WITNESSES IN SUPPORT IN THE ROOM
THAT CAN STEP FORWARD? SIMPLY
STATE YOUR NAME, ORGANIZATION
AND POSITION. I HAVE ONE AS A
SUBSTITUTE FOR THE CALIFORNIA
COMMUNITY INVESTMENT COALITION.
THANK YOU, GOOD AFTERNOON,
DESIREE WENTWORTH, ON BEHALF OF
EAST BAY COMMUNITY LAW CENTER IN
STRONG SUPPORT. DANNY CANDLE
KAISER, ON BEHALF OF THE
CALIFORNIA LOW INCOME CONSUMER
COALITION AND SUPPORT. THANK YOU
. MARGARET GLADSTEIN, ON BEHALF
OF THE SECURED FINANCE NETWORK,
WE ARE NEUTRAL ON THE BILL, BUT
APPRECIATE THE AUTHOR TAKING THE
MOST RECENT AMENDMENTS MUCH
APPRECIATED. ANY OTHER
ADDITIONAL WITNESSES IN SUPPORT?
SEEING NONE, WE WILL NOW GO TO
WITNESSES IN OPPOSITION AND NEED
OPPOSITION. AND YOU HAVE TWO
MINUTES PER WITNESS, UP TO TWO
WITNESSES. PLEASE BEGIN WHEN
YOU'RE READY. THANK YOU, MR.
CHAIRMAN, AND COMMITTEE MEMBERS,
CAROLYN BEALL HUNTER, ON BEHALF
OF THE CALIFORNIA, ON BEHALF OF
THE REVENUE BASED FINANCIAL
COALITION, WHICH IS AN
ORGANIZATION OF RESPONSIBLE
PROVIDERS OF REVENUE BASED
FINANCING TO SMALL AND MEDIUM
SIZED BUSINESS, OUR BPHC IS
THANKFUL FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO
WORK WITH SENATOR GLAZER ON THIS
IMPORTANT PIECE OF LEGISLATION,
AND WE THANK HIM FOR MODIFYING
THE LEGISLATION. THE BILL TO
IMPLEMENT A REGISTRATION SCHEME.
HOWEVER, DESPITE THE CHANGES IN
LANGUAGE, THE BILL CONTINUES TO
LOOK MORE LIKE AND FUNCTION MORE
LIKE A LICENSING SCHEME. OUR
BBFC HAS SEEN A REGISTRATION
SCHEME IMPLEMENTED IN SEVERAL
STATES AND THINKS IT WOULD BE A
GOOD POLICY IN THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE
UNDERLYING REQUIREMENTS IN
SECTION 90030 FOR THE
REGISTRATION APPLICATION TO BE
FILED BY COMMERCIAL FINANCE
PROVIDERS REQUIRES SUBMISSION OF
MORE INFORMATION THAN IS
REQUIRED OF CFL LICENSED LENDERS
. ADDITIONALLY, SECTION 90029,
PARAGRAPH 15 REQUIRES EVEN MORE
DETAILED INFORMATION, ALL OF
WHICH CAN BE REQUIRED FOR
FURTHER REVIEW ON A CASE BY CASE
BASIS. IF THE APPLICANT WARRANTS
FURTHER REVIEW. OUR BBFC
BELIEVES THAT THE DOCUMENTATION
REQUIREMENTS OF SB 1482 ARE
OVERLY BURDENSOME FOR BUSINESSES
TO COMPLY WITH. IN FACT, THE
REGISTRATION REGIME PROPOSED IN
SB 1482 EXCEEDS MANY OF THE
COMPLIANCE PARAMETERS OF THE
CURRENT CFL LICENSE FOR CONSUMER
LOAN LOAN TRANSACTIONS. THE
LETTER SUBMITTED TO THIS
COMMITTEE IDENTIFIES RECOMMENDED
CHANGES TO ADDRESS THE CONCERNS
NOTED ABOVE. IN CLOSING, OUR
BBFC'S CONCERNS ARE BASED ON ONE
AND OVERBROAD PAPERWORK
COLLECTION AND SUBMISSION
PROCESS ON THE PART OF THE
PROVIDERS THAT EXCEEDS
REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS IN ANY
OTHER STATES, AND TWO, A COSTLY
DOCUMENT REVIEW PROCESS BY DFP
FOR NEARLY ALL PROVIDERS, AS
WRITTEN, THE AMOUNT OF
INFORMATION THE DFP WILL RECEIVE
IS OVERWHELMING. WE URGE THIS
COMMITTEE TO REDUCE THE
COMPLEXITY AND COSTS ASSOCIATED
WITH THE REGISTRATION PROCESS
OUTLINED IN THE BILL. THANK YOU.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TESTIMONY.
ADDITIONAL WITNESSES IN
OPPOSITION IN THE ROOM. STEP
FORWARD. GOOD AFTERNOON, CHRIS
ROSA, ON BEHALF OF TWO SMALL
BUSINESS FINANCING COMPANIES,
RAPID FINANCE AND CAPTUS, THESE
TWO COMPANIES ARE CFL LICENSEES
AND UNDER THE ORIGINAL VERSION
OF SENATOR GLAZER'S BILL, THIS
WAS A LICENSURE BILL AND WE
AGREED WITH LICENSURE. AS I
MENTIONED, THESE TWO COMPANIES
ARE LICENSED UNDER THE CFL, THIS
BILL, THOUGH, HAS BEEN DILUTED
DOWN FROM LICENSURE TO A LOWER
FORM OF OVERSIGHT, WHICH IS
REGISTRATION. AND THAT WAS DONE
NOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD POLICY OR
IT'S THE BEST WAY TO PROTECT
CONSUMERS, BUT TO GET IT OUT OF
APPROPRIATIONS, WHICH IS NOT
NECESSARILY COMMENSURATE. THE
CHEAPEST WAY IS NOT NECESSARILY
COMMENSURATE WITH THE BEST
CONSUMER PROTECTION. SO, WE ALSO
ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT THIS IS
GOING TO ALLOW THE BAD GUYS TO
STILL OPERATE IN THE SHADOWS,
AND THEY CAN HAVE THE GOOD
HOUSEKEEPING SEAL OF APPROVAL TO
SAY, LOOK, WE'RE REGISTERED WITH
THE DPI. BUT AGAIN, CONSUMERS
GENERALLY DON'T KNOW THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LICENSURE AND
REGISTRATION. SO THEY VERY WELL
COULD MISUNDERSTAND THIS, THAT
THIS HAS THE SAME LEVEL OF
CONSUMER OVERSIGHT AND
PROTECTION THAT LICENSURE DOES.
SO WE WOULD ASK THAT THIS BILL,
NOT MOVE FORWARD. WE HAVE AN
OPPOSING LIST AMENDED POSITION,
AND WE COME BACK IN ANOTHER YEAR
WHEN THE APPROPRIATIONS DOES
HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO PASS A
LICENSURE BILL, WHICH IS, AGAIN,
IN THE BEST INTEREST OF
CONSUMERS. THANK YOU. SO WE WILL
COUNT THAT AS THE SECOND WITNESS
WITH TWO MINUTES AND SIMPLY
STATE YOUR NAME ORGANIZATION
POSITION, PLEASE. CHAIR MEMBERS
RJ CERVANTES ON BEHALF OF THE
ELECTRONIC TRANSACTIONS
ASSOCIATION WITH AN OPPOSING
AMENDED POSITION. THANK YOU.
GOOD AFTERNOON, PAT JOYCE. ON
BEHALF OF FORWARD FINANCING, THE
COMMERCIAL FINANCING PROVIDER,
OPPOSED UNLESS AMENDED. THANK
YOU. JAMIE MINOR, A BIT OF A
TWEENER. DON'T HAVE AN OFFICIAL
POSITION ON BEHALF OF PAYPAL,
BUT JUST WANTED TO SHARE SOME
CONCERNS THAT WE LOOK FORWARD TO
WORKING WITH THE AUTHOR ON AND
HOPING TO, CARVE SOME OF THESE
REQUIREMENTS INTO EXISTING
LICENSURE REQUIREMENTS AND
AGAIN, APPRECIATE THE WORK SO
FAR AND SUPPORT WHAT HE'S TRYING
TO DO BUT WANT TO KEEP WORKING.
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH. SEEING
NO OTHER WITNESSES STEPPING
FORWARD, WE'LL BRING IT BACK TO
COMMITTEE FOR QUESTIONS OR
CONCERNS OR COMMENTS OR
ACCOLADES OR ANYTHING ELSE.
SEEING NONE, WE WILL. YES.
ASSEMBLY MEMBER SORRY, A
QUESTION, THANK YOU, SENATOR
GLAZIER, FOR PRESENTING YOUR
BILL. JUST, I GUESS WANTED TO
UNDERSTAND MORE OF THE
OPPOSITION. AND IS THERE A
POSSIBILITY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
ADDRESS SOME OF THE CONCERNS?
OBVIOUSLY, I HEAR BOTH. ONE, IN
TERMS OF THE BILL HAS BEEN
WATERED DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY
BECAUSE OF COST. SO MAYBE NOT AS
PROTECTIVE AS WE INITIALLY
WANTED. AND THEN A COUPLE OTHER
CONCERNS, MAYBE. CAN YOU SPEAK
TO THAT AND DO YOU PLAN TO
ADDRESS THOSE MOVING FORWARD?
WHAT WHAT WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO
DO THROUGH THE CHAIR? THANK YOU
VERY MUCH. AND, YOU KNOW, WE'VE
BEEN WORKING WITH, FOLKS THAT
HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS FOR A
COUPLE OF YEARS NOW. AND, YOU
KNOW, THE PERFECT CAN BE THE
ENEMY OF THE GOOD HERE. I MEAN,
WE TOOK WHAT MANY OF THEM
OBJECTED TO, WHICH WAS A
LICENSING SCHEME, AND WE TURNED
IT INTO REGISTRATION, WHICH MADE
A LOT OF THEM HAPPY. BUT
OBVIOUSLY I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED
TO HAVE A LICENSING SCHEME, BUT
THERE ARE COMPLEXITIES TO THAT.
AND COSTS INVOLVED IN THAT. AND
I FELT THAT GIVEN THE FISCAL
SITUATION IN THE STATE, THAT IT
WAS GOING TO BE AN UNLIKELY
THING THAT COULD ACTUALLY GET
DONE. SO REGISTRATION IS A STEP
UP. IT'S NOT WHERE I'D LIKE IT
TO BE, AND MAYBE SOME OF YOU
WOULD LIKE IT TO BE, BUT I THINK
IT IS GOING TO PROVIDE AN
ADDITIONAL LAYER OF CONSUMER
PROTECTION IN THAT. HOPEFULLY
THERE'LL BE OTHERS LEADERS IN
THIS SPACE AFTER I'M OUT THIS
YEAR OF THE SENATE THAT CAN TRY
TO MAKE IT EVEN BETTER. BUT THAT
WAS THE REASON THE BILL HAS BEEN
IS IN THE CURRENT SHAPE THAT
IT'S IN NOW, WHICH IS THAT WE
TOOK A LOT OF CHANGES AND, AND,
BUT THERE ARE SOME OBJECTIONS
THAT WE HAVE IN LETTERS THAT I
THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT I CAN
ACCOMMODATE, AS IF THE BILL
MOVES FORWARD TODAY. AND I'M
WILLING TO CONTINUE TO WORK WITH
THEM TO MAKE, SOME OF THE ISSUES
THAT THEY'VE RAISED, RESOLVE
SOME OF THEM. BUT THE ISSUE OF
GOING BACK TO, TO LICENSING IS
NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO AT THIS
POINT IN TIME. THANK YOU. ANY
OTHER QUESTIONS? COMMENTS?
SEEING NONE. DO I HAVE A MOTION?
SO I HAVE A MOTION FROM SIMILAR
MEMBER CARRA AND A SECOND FROM A
SIMILAR MEMBER FONG. SENATOR,
WOULD YOU LIKE TO CLOSE? THANK
YOU. CHAIR, I WOULD SAY THIS,
YOU KNOW, IT WAS AN EXCELLENT
ANALYSIS BY YOUR STAFF, SO THANK
YOU. AND I WANT TO QUOTE A
PHRASE IN IT, JUST ONE SENTENCE.
IT SAYS JUST BECAUSE. BECAUSE
THE CRITICISM WAS THAT IT'S TOO
BURDENSOME, TOO MUCH
INFORMATION, TOO BURDENSOME,
THAT THIS BILL WOULD REQUIRE.
AND THIS IS SUCH A GREAT
SUMMARY. IT SAYS JUST BECAUSE A
PRODUCT IS COMPLICATED AND THESE
FINANCING SCHEMES ARE VERY
COMPLICATED, IT DOES NOT MEAN
THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHOULD
NOT UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS. THE
COMPLEXITY OF SOME OF THESE
FINANCING PRODUCTS IS ITSELF A
SOURCE OF HARM, AND IT'S FAIR TO
ASK COMPANIES TO EXPLAIN HOW
THEY WORK, HOW THEY MAKE MONEY,
AND WHAT THEIR CUSTOMERS PAY.
AND IT'S A GREAT SUMMARY FOR WHY
I HOPE THAT YOU'LL CONSIDER
MOVING THE BILL FORWARD TODAY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, SENATOR. WITH
THAT SECRETARY, PLEASE CALL ROLL
ON THE BILL. SB 1482. THE MOTION
IS DUE PASS AND REFERRED TO
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS.
GRAYSON. GRAYSON. I CHEN. DIXON.
DIXON. I FONG FONG I CORRE CORRE
I MAIENSCHEIN. MAIENSCHEIN I
PETRIE-NORRIS. BLANCO. RUBIO
BLANCO RUBIO I SORIA. SORRY, I
THE BILL HAS SEVEN VOTES. THANK
YOU. RUNNING 100% THERE SENATOR.
THANK YOU ALL. WITH THAT SEVEN
VOTES, THE BILL WILL GET UP, BUT
WE'LL KEEP IT OPEN FOR ABSENT
MEMBERS. LAST BUT DEFINITELY NOT
LEAST, FILE ITEM NUMBER THREE,
SENATOR MIN SB 1286
RECOMMENDATION DO PASS TO
COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY. AND IT
IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU
HAVE AGREED TO TAKE AMENDMENTS
DETAILED IN THE ANALYSIS AT A
LATER TIME. THAT IS CORRECT.
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. YOU MAY
BEGIN. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MR.
CHAIR. AND YES, I WILL BE
ACCEPTING THE COMMITTEE'S
PROPOSED AMENDMENTS. I WANT TO
THANK THEM FOR THEIR HELP IN
THIS, SB 1286 EXTENDS
PROTECTIONS UNDER THE ROSENTHAL
ACT TO INDIVIDUALS WHO
PERSONALLY SIGN FOR THEIR
BUSINESS DEBT, PROTECTING THEM
FROM UNFAIR, DECEPTIVE, AND
ABUSIVE DEBT COLLECTION
PRACTICES. SINCE THE 2008
ECONOMIC CRASH, MANY TRADITIONAL
AND NONTRADITIONAL LENDERS HAVE
REQUIRED INDIVIDUALS TO
PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THEIR
BUSINESS DEBT, PROVIDING A
PERSONAL GUARANTEE OPENS THE
DOOR FOR THESE SMALL BUSINESS
OWNERS TO BE SUBJECT TO THE SAME
TYPES OF ABUSIVE DEBT COLLECTION
PRACTICES THAT THE ROSENTHAL ACT
WAS INTENDED TO PREVENT. THESE
PRACTICES CAN INCLUDE THREATS,
CONTACTING BORROWERS AT
INCONVENIENT HOURS, USING FALSE
STATEMENTS, AND ADDING
UNAUTHORIZED INTEREST OR FEES TO
THE AMOUNT OWED UNDER SB 1286.
THESE BORROWERS WOULD STILL BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING THEIR
DEBTS, BUT WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT
TO UNFAIR, DECEPTIVE OR ABUSIVE
COLLECTION PRACTICES. MANY
LENDERS AND COLLECTORS ALREADY
ABIDE BY THE ROSENTHAL ACT FOR
CONSUMER DEBT. THIS BILL SIMPLY
EXTENDS THOSE PROTECTIONS TO
INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE GUARANTEED
COMMERCIAL DEBT HERE TO TESTIFY
IN SUPPORT OF THE BILL TODAY, I
HAVE FIRST, LEWIS CADETS PECK,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS LENDING
COALITION. AND THEN AFTER THAT,
DESIREE NGUYEN ORTH, DIRECTOR OF
THE COMMUNITY CONSUMER JUSTICE
UNIT AT EAST BAY COMMUNITY LAW
CENTER LECTURE AT UCLA, UC
BERKELEY, BERKELEY LAW AND BOARD
MEMBER OF THE DEBT COLLECTION
ADVISORY BOARD TO DFP.
PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS AN ATTORNEY
FOR SMALL FEMALE OWNED
BUSINESSES, TWO MINUTES EACH.
HONORABLE MEMBERS. SO THE
RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS LENDING
COALITION, OF WHICH I'M THE
EXACT DIRECTOR, REPRESENTS OVER
1000 SMALL BUSINESS GROUPS, FOR
PROFIT FINANCING PROVIDERS,
NONPROFIT CDFIS, CIVIL RIGHTS
AND COMMUNITY GROUPS, AND ACROSS
OUR MEMBERS. MANY DIFFERENCES.
THEY ALL AGREED THAT SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS DESERVE TO BE
TREATED FAIRLY DURING THE
FINANCING COLLECTIONS PROCESS.
THE RISKS THAT BUSINESS OWNERS
TAKE ARE THE SOURCE OF
CALIFORNIA'S ECONOMIC VITALITY.
WHEN A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IS
BEST LAID, PLANS FAIL.
CALIFORNIA'S ECONOMY DEPENDS ON
THOSE BUSINESS OWNERS REPAYING
THE MONEY THEY OWE AND THEN
GETTING BACK UP AND STARTING A
NEW BUSINESS. BUT WHEN SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS ARE CURRENTLY
BEING HARASSED, BULLIED AND
HUMILIATED IN WAYS THAT HAVE
BEEN ILLEGAL IN CONSUMER LENDING
SINCE THE 1970S, WHEN THEY GET
KNOCKED DOWN TOO HARD AND THEY
DON'T CONTINUE AS SERIAL
ENTREPRENEURS. OUR ECONOMY
SUFFERS AS WELL, MY ORGANIZATION
DID NOT TAKE A POSITION ON THIS
BILL AT FIRST BECAUSE WE NEEDED
TIME FOR OUR FOR PROFIT MEMBERS
TO ANALYZE THE BILL WITH OUR
COMPLIANCE TEAMS AND THEIR LEGAL
TEAMS, AND ASSESS WHETHER IT
WOULD CREATE A DIFFICULT
COMPLIANCE BURDEN FOR THEM AND
WHAT THEY FOUND IS IT WOULD NOT,
IN FACT, OUR MEMBERS COMPLIANCE
TEAM SHARED THAT THEY GENERALLY
COMPLY WITH THE REQUIREMENTS
ALREADY. AFTER ALL, IT'S COMMON
DECENCY NOT TO LIE AND HARASS
CONSUMERS OR CUSTOMERS. THERE
ARE SEVERAL AFFIRMATIVE
REQUIREMENTS IN THE BILL TO
PROVIDE NOTICES TO BORROWERS.
SOME OF OUR MEMBERS FOUND THOSE
WOULD BE NEW, BUT NOT ONEROUS.
OUR MEMBERS SHARED THAT ABUSIVE
COLLECTIONS PRACTICES HARM NOT
ONLY BUSINESS OWNERS, BUT ALSO
FAIR COMPETITION AMONG FINANCING
COMPANIES. WHEN SOME COMPANIES
USE THESE UNETHICAL MEANS TO
EXTRACT A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE,
RESPONSIBLE LENDERS CAN BE AT A
DISADVANTAGE UNLESS THEY ADOPT
THE SAME UNETHICAL PRACTICES. SB
1286 SETS A FAIR STANDARD FOR
COMPETITION BY PROHIBITING
THINGS LIKE LYING PUBLICLY,
HUMILIATING A SMALL BUSINESS
OWNER TO PRESSURE THEM, CALLING
THEM REPEATEDLY IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT, AND SO ON. THANK YOU
FOR YOUR SUPPORT, PLEASE. GOOD
AFTERNOON, CHAIR AND COMMITTEE
MEMBERS. SB 1286 IS AN IMPORTANT
MEASURE THAT WILL REQUIRE LONG
ACCEPTED PRACTICES OF DECENCY
AND DEBT COLLECTION TO BE
APPLIED TO THE DEBT COLLECTION
FOR INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNERS.
AS OF 2023, CALIFORNIA HAS 3.35
MILLION SMALL BUSINESSES THAT DO
NOT HAVE EMPLOYEES. THAT'S 3.35
MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING
THEIR OWN MARKETING, TAXES,
ACCOUNTING, WEB DESIGN AND MORE
ON TOP OF THE SERVICES AND GOODS
THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SELL.
MODERN BUSINESS IS MORE
INTERWOVEN WITH OUR NORMAL DAILY
LIVES THAN EVER BEFORE. MANY
PEOPLE CO-MINGLE PERSONAL AND
BUSINESS ASSETS, LIKE USING
THEIR CELL PHONE AND HOME OFFICE
TO DO BUSINESS. BASED ON MY
EXPERIENCE WITH THESE BUSINESS
OWNERS, IT IS CLEAR THAT MANY DO
NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL BUSINESS
ACUMEN OR EQUAL BARGAINING POWER
TO NEGOTIATE FAVORABLE OR FAIR
FINANCING TERMS. AS SUCH, THE
LEAST SOPHISTICATED CONSUMER
STANDARD IS MORE APPROPRIATE
HERE IS WHAT 1286 WILL DO. IT
WILL ENSURE THAT PERSONAL
GUARANTEES AND LOANS FOR
BUSINESS OWNERS ARE COLLECTED
FAIRLY, WITHOUT DECEIT AND
HARASSMENT. IT'S A NARROW
APPLICATION OF THE LAW, WITH A
SCOPE LIMITED ONLY TO NATURAL
PERSONS. IT'S A LAW THAT ALREADY
APPLIES TO A LARGE SWATH OF
EXISTING LENDERS AND COLLECTORS,
INCLUDING THOSE IN OPPOSITION,
WITHOUT ADDING ANY NEW LICENSING
REQUIREMENTS, AND IT EXPANDS THE
VENUE PROVISION FOR JUDICIAL
EFFICIENCY. MORE IMPORTANTLY,
HERE IS WHAT 1286 WILL NOT DO.
IT WILL NOT. AND NEVER HAS BEEN
A WAY FOR ANYONE TO GET OUT OF
PAYING THEIR DEBTS. IT WILL NOT
AFFECT THE CURRENT DEBT
COLLECTION PRACTICES FOR THE
COLLECTION OF A CORPORATION'S
DEBTS, INCLUDING THE ABILITY TO
MISUSE THE BETTER BUSINESS
BUREAU FOR PUBLIC SHAMING. AND
IT IS NOT A WAY FOR DUBIOUS
BUSINESS OWNERS TO MISLEAD
FINANCERS BY OPENING AND CLOSING
NEW BUSINESS LOANS, BECAUSE A
PERSONAL LOAN, REGARDLESS OF THE
END USE, IS STILL REPORTED ON A
PERSON'S CREDIT REPORT. I THINK
IF WE'RE CONSIDERING THIS BILL,
WHICH WILL BENEFIT A LARGELY
UNDERREPRESENTED COMMUNITY, THAT
COMPRISE THAT COMPRISES A VAST
PORTION OF THE ECONOMIC FABRIC
OF CALIFORNIA, I RESPECTFULLY
URGE YOUR AYE VOTE. THANK YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR
TESTIMONY. OTHERS IN SUPPORT,
PLEASE STEP FORWARD. NAME.
ORGANIZATION. POSITION. GOOD
AFTERNOON, MR. CHAIRMAN, AND
MEMBERS, ROBERT HARRELL WITH THE
CONSUMER FEDERATION OF
CALIFORNIA. WE'RE ONE OF THE
CO-SPONSORS OF THE BILL. URGE
REVOKE. SORRY, ROBERT, HEIDI
PICKMAN, EXCUSE ME. CAMEO
NETWORK, ALSO A CO-SPONSOR OF
BILL, AS WELL AS FOR THE
CALIFORNIA COALITION FOR
COMMUNITY INVESTMENT SUPPORT.
THIS BILL. BRIAN WHALEN FROM SAN
FRANCISCO AND STRONG SUPPORT.
AHMAD CHANA FROM IRVINE,
CALIFORNIA, IN STRONG SUPPORT.
JUNE JOAN FROM BERKELEY AND
STRONG SUPPORT. DANNY KAISER, ON
BEHALF OF THE CALIFORNIA LOW
INCOME CONSUMER COALITION IN
SUPPORT. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.
ANY OTHERS IN SUPPORT? SEEING
NONE, WE'LL GO TO OPPOSITION AT
THIS TIME. AND, LEAD OPPOSITION
TWO MINUTES EACH FOR TWO
WITNESSES. BEGIN WHEN YOU'RE
READY. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.
CLIFF BURG HERE ON BEHALF OF THE
CALIFORNIA ASSOCIATION OF
COLLECTORS. WE CERTAINLY AGREE
WITH THE AUTHOR AND THE SPONSORS
THAT NO ONE WANTS TO SEE
DECEPTIVE PRACTICES. AND WE
WOULD BASICALLY SUPPORT
LEGISLATION THAT TOOK THE SPIRIT
OF THE ROSENTHAL ACT AND
ESTABLISHED A LAW SEPARATE AND
APART FROM THE ROSENTHAL ACT
THAT COVERS SMALL BUSINESSES.
HOWEVER, THIS BILL TRIES TO JAM
INTO THE ROSENTHAL ACT, WHICH
WAS DESIGNED TO PROTECT
CONSUMERS AND VERY SPECIFICALLY
HAS MANY, MANY REFERENCES TO
HOUSEHOLD SITUATIONS RELATING TO
CONSUMERS. THE BUSINESS
COMMUNITY, AND COMMERCIAL
COMMERCIAL DEBT, IT'S A ROUND
PEG IN A SQUARE HOLE. IT DOESN'T
FIT, WE WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE
HAVE WORKED CLOSELY WITH THE
AUTHOR AND HIS STAFF AND THIS
COMMITTEE STAFF ON TRYING TO
ADDRESS, SINCE THERE'S BEEN A
CONSISTENT REFUSAL TO JUST
ESTABLISH A SEPARATE ACT
REGARDING COMMERCIAL DEBT, WE
HAVE WORKED WITH THEM AND WE
HAVE MADE SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS
IN TERMS OF TRYING TO WEAVE
THROUGH THE ROSENTHAL ACT
REFERENCES THAT SHOULD COVER
COMMERCIAL DEBT AND REFERENCES
THAT SHOULD ONLY BE LIMITED TO
CONSUMER DEBT. AND IT'S BEEN AN
EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TASK TO TRY
TO WEAVE BACK AND FORTH, BUT
MUCH PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE. WE
REMAIN CONCERNED ABOUT TWO
PROVISIONS. ONE IS THE VENUE
PROVISION IN THE BILL, WHICH,
WAS TAILORED IN ESSENCE FOR
CONSUMERS. AND YOU HAVE A
BUSINESS AND IT MAY HAVE THE
BUSINESS OWNER LIVING HERE. THE
TRANSACTION THERE, THE BUSINESS
IS THERE, THAT STILL NEEDS WORK
AS WELL AS THE PROVISION THAT
WAS ALLUDED TO. CREDIT REPORTING
SHOULD SHOULD INVOLVE THE
ABILITY TO CONTACT THE BETTER
BUSINESS BUREAU. AND THIS BILL
STILL SEEMS TO HAVE LANGUAGE
THAT OBSTRUCTS, AND IT SOUNDS
LIKE MAYBE INTENTIONALLY THE
ABILITY TO REPORT A BUSINESS
THAT IS VIOLATING GOOD BUSINESS,
GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICES. AND WE
BELIEVE THAT THAT PROVISION
NEEDS WORK. LASTLY, WE WOULD
JUST MENTION THAT, YOU KNOW,
THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS
BILL, WE'VE HEARD IT'S NEEDED TO
PROTECT SMALL BUSINESSES, MICRO
BUSINESSES. THERE REALLY STILL
IS NO DEFINITION IN THIS BILL OF
WHO IT APPLIES TO, AND THEREFORE
IT SEEMS TO APPLY TO PRETTY MUCH
ALL COMMERCIAL DEBT. SO WE HAVE
THOSE REMAINING CONCERNS. BUT WE
DO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE
AUTHOR AND THE SPONSORS AND YOUR
STAFF HAVE WORKED DILIGENTLY TO
TRY TO ADDRESS NUMEROUS OTHER
CONCERNS WITHIN THE BILL. SO
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. NEXT
WITNESS. AFTERNOON, MELANIE
CUEVAS WITH THE CALIFORNIA
BANKERS ASSOCIATION. AGAIN,
APPRECIATE THE COMMITTEE'S WORK,
ON THE AMENDMENTS AND LOOK
FORWARD TO CONTINUED
CONVERSATION WITH THE AUTHORS
OFFICE AND WITH THE PROPONENTS
ABOUT OUR REMAINING CONCERNS.
SIMILARLY OUR PREFERENCE WOULD
BE TO START A NEW CODE SECTION
TO ADDRESS THESE COMMERCIAL
DEBTS AND THE PROTECTIONS
THEREOF AT A HIGH LEVEL. I THINK
WE AGREE THAT BULLYING OR
HARASSING PHONE CALLS ARE
ABUSIVE. HOWEVER, ROSENTHAL IS
MUCH MORE THAN THAT. THIS
MEASURE AMENDS ROSENTHAL, WHICH
IS MATTERED. MODELED AFTER THE
FEDERAL FAIR DEBT COLLECTION
PRACTICES ACT, BOTH OF WHICH
ADDRESS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS
THE LEAST SOPHISTICATED CONSUMER
STANDARD, WHICH MEANS THAT THE
DEBTOR MUST BE CONSIDERED
UNINFORMED AND NAIVE. COMMERCIAL
TRANSACTIONS THAT ARE IMPACTED
BY THIS BILL TEND TO BE MORE
COMPLEX, AND THESE BORROWERS ARE
TYPICALLY JUST THEY'RE NOT
UNINFORMED. FOR EXAMPLE,
BUSINESS OWNERS MUST PRESENT A
VERY THOROUGH BUSINESS PLAN TO A
BANK IN ORDER TO SECURE
FINANCIAL PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.
SO AS SUCH, WE BELIEVE THAT IT
IS IMPERATIVE MOVING FORWARD
WITH THIS BILL IN ITS CURRENT
FORM, THAT THE DEFINITION OF
COVERED COMMERCIAL TRANSACTION
IN 1780 8.2 N BE CLARIFIED TO
APPLY TO THE TOTALITY OF THE
COMMERCIAL TRANSACTION TO ENSURE
CONSISTENCY WITH THE SPIRIT OF
ROSENTHAL THAT WE'RE PROTECTING
THE LEAST SOPHISTICATED
CONSUMERS, WE'RE ALSO CONCERNED
WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION DATE.
AND SIMILARLY, THE COUNTY OF
JURISDICTION IN 1788 .15,
INTERNALLY, I THINK IT'S WORTH
NOTING THAT IN THE COMMERCIAL
SPACE EXPERIENCED LOAN MANAGERS
WORK DIRECTLY WITH BUSINESS
BORROWERS. THIS IS UNLIKE THE
COMMERCIAL OR THE CONSUMER SPACE
IN DEALING WITH DIFFERENT
SOLUTIONS. SO THIS COULD MEAN,
FOR EXAMPLE, IF A BORROWER, A
COMMERCIAL BORROWER IS
DISTRESSED, THERE COULD BE A 10
P.M. PHONE CALL BETWEEN THAT
BORROWER AND THE BANK'S
RELATIONSHIP MANAGER AT THAT
BORROWER'S REQUEST. BECAUSE THAT
BORROWER IS A BUSINESS OWNER
WHO'S IN A CONFERENCE ON EAST
COAST TIME. THIS MEASURE, AS
WRITTEN, COULD NEGATIVELY IMPACT
THAT TYPE OF PERSONALIZED
RELATIONSHIP MANAGEMENT IN THE
COMMERCIAL SPACE, WHICH IS VERY
IMPORTANT FOR BOTH FINANCIAL
INSTITUTIONS AND THE CONSUMERS
THEMSELVES. AGAIN, LOOK FORWARD
TO CONTINUED CONVERSATIONS WITH
THE PROPONENTS ABOUT THE
THRESHOLD OF LOANS IMPACTED, AND
HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
YOUR TESTIMONY. OTHER WITNESSES
IN OPPOSITION OR NEUTRAL, PLEASE
STEP FORWARD. MISTER CHAIR
MEMBERS. SCOTT. GOVERNOR, ON
BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN FINANCIAL
SERVICES ASSOCIATION, WE LOOK
FORWARD TO CONTINUING TO WORK
WITH THE AUTHOR. AND AS THIS
BILL IMPACTS OPEN ENDED CREDIT
LINES, THANK YOU. GOOD
AFTERNOON. LINDSAY GOLDEN WITH
CAPITAL ADVOCACY ON BEHALF OF
THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY BANKING
NETWORK, RESPECTFULLY OPPOSED.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. CHAIR, AND
MEMBERS. ANGIE MINETTI HERE ON
BEHALF OF COX AUTOMOTIVE, WE
HAVE NEXT YEAR AS A SUBSIDIARY
AND ECHO THE COMMENTS OF AFSA.
THANK YOU. DAVID REED. WITH THE
RECEIVABLES MANAGEMENT
ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL IN
RESPECTFUL OPPOSITION. GOOD
AFTERNOON, EMILY DOE WITH THE
CALIFORNIA CREDIT UNION LEAGUE
IN OPPOSITION. INDIRA MCDONALD,
ON BEHALF OF THE CALIFORNIA
MORTGAGE BANKERS ASSOCIATION, IN
OPPOSITION. MR. CHAIR AND
MEMBERS. CLIFF CASATI, ON BEHALF
OF THE CALIFORNIA CREDITORS BAR
ASSOCIATION AND RESPECTFUL
OPPOSE UNLESS AMENDED POSITION.
THANK YOU, GOOD AFTERNOON, MR.
CHAIR, AND MEMBERS. ROBERT
MURRAY, CALIFORNIA CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE, RESPECTFULLY OPPOSED
FOR THE REASONS STATED. THANK
YOU. ANY OTHERS IN OPPOSITION?
SEEING NONE. WE'LL BRING IT TO
COMMITTEE FOR QUESTIONS OR
COMMENTS. SEEING NO STIRRING AT
THE DÍAS. THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT,
MUCH OPPOSITION SAID THEY WANT
TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A
CONVERSATION WITH YOU, SENATOR.
SO THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS. DO I
HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND? SO I
HAVE A MOTION FROM A SIMILAR
MEMBER. KALRA SECOND FROM A
SIMILAR MEMBER, FONG. AND WITH
THAT, PLEASE CALL ROLL Ó WOULD
YOU LIKE TO CLOSE, SENATOR?
YEAH. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. I'LL
JUST EMPHASIZE WE ARE CONTINUING
TO WORK WITH THIS BILL. IT'S
BEEN A WORK IN PROCESS, WE ARE
TRYING TO ADDRESS THE CONCERNS
RAISED. I WILL JUST RESPECTFULLY
DISAGREE. I THINK CREATING A NEW
FRAMEWORK FOR DEBT COLLECTION
WHEN YOU HAVE A FRAMEWORK IN
PLACE, IS NOT SOMETHING I THINK
MAKES SENSE. AND I REALIZE
THERE'S BEEN SOME DISAGREEMENT
ABOUT THAT. I ALSO JUST WOULD
NOTE WE'RE NOT TARGETING, THE
BAD GUYS HERE, NOT THE BANKS
THAT PRESUMABLY DON'T ENGAGE IN
THESE AGGRESSIVE DEBT COLLECTION
PRACTICES, NOT THE 10 P.M. PHONE
CALLS THAT ARE COLLABORATIVE.
IT'S THE AGGRESSIVE DEBT
COLLECTORS, THE ALTERNATIVE
LENDERS AND COLLECTORS THAT
WE'VE SEEN POP UP IN THIS SPACE
THAT LOOK A LOT LIKE THE
SUBPRIME MORTGAGE LENDING
BUSINESS AND SOME OF THE DEBT
COLLECTION PRACTICES WE SAW
DURING THAT ERA BACK IN THE LATE
Ó. SO I THINK THIS IS A REAL
PROBLEM. YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT IT
IN YOUR COMMUNITIES. AND I WOULD
JUST EMPHASIZE THAT WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT BORROWERS, MANY SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS ARE VERY CLEARLY
UNSOPHISTICATED. THESE ARE
IMMIGRANT BLACK AND BROWN
COMMUNITIES. THEY'RE TOLD THAT
ENTREPRENEURIAL ISM, SMALL
BUSINESSES ARE THEIR PATHWAY TO
THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND THEY GET
TARGETED BY ALL SORTS OF
PREDATORY LENDING PRACTICES,
DEBT COLLECTION PRACTICES. AND
SO THIS IS MEANT TO ADDRESS THE
REAL ABUSES WE'RE SEEING IN THIS
SPACE. I THINK IT'S A GOOD BILL.
AND I COMMIT TO YOU. WE'LL
CONTINUE WORKING WITH THE
OPPOSITION TO ADDRESS SOME OF
THE CONCERNS THEY'VE RAISED.
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR THAT
COMMITMENT, SENATOR. AND I ALSO
WANT TO STATE THAT WE RAN INTO A
TIMING ISSUE IN THE COMMITTEE,
BANKING COMMITTEE. SO AGAIN,
THANK YOU FOR ACCEPTING,
SUGGESTED AMENDMENTS THAT WILL
ACTUALLY TAKE PLACE IN THE NEXT
COMMITTEE HEARING. YOU HAVE MY
COMMITMENT. WE'LL TAKE THOSE. I
REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. THANK
YOU VERY MUCH. WITH THAT
SECRETARY, PLEASE CALL THE ROLL
ON THE BILL. SB 1286, THE MOTION
IS TO PASS AND REFER TO
COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY. GRAYSON.
GRAYSON. AYE. CHIN CHIN. NO.
DIXON. DIXON NO. FONG. FONG.
AYE. CORA CORA I MAIENSCHEIN.
AYE. MAIENSCHEIN AYE.
PETRIE-NORRIS. AYE.
PETRIE-NORRIS. AYE BLANCA.
RUBIO. MARCO. RUBIO. AYE. SORIA
THAT BILL HAS SIX VOTES. THANK
YOU. THE BILL HAS SIX VOTES.
THAT'S ENOUGH TO GET OUT. WE
WILL KEEP IT OPEN FOR ABSENT
MEMBERS TO ADD ON.
OKAY, SO, SECRETARY, WE'LL JUST
START WITH FILE ORDER NUMBER
ONE. GO THROUGH AND ADD ON
ABSENT MEMBERS. THANK YOU. ON
THE BILL SB 1061, THE MOTION IS
DUE PASS AND IS AS AMENDED AND
REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON
APPROPRIATIONS. CHEN TEN. NOT
VOTING MAIENSCHEIN MAIENSCHEIN.
AYE PETRIE-NORRIS. AYE.
PETRIE-NORRIS AYE. THE BILL HAS
SEVEN VOTES. BILL HAS SEVEN
VOTES. IT GETS OUT OF COMMITTEE.
FILE ITEM NUMBER TWO, PLEASE. ON
THE BILL. SB 1075, THE MOTION IS
TO PASS AND REFER TO COMMITTEE
ON APPROPRIATIONS. CORRE, CORRE,
I MAY SHINE, MAY SHINE. I
PETRIE-NORRIS PETRIE-NORRIS.
AYE. THAT BILL HAS NINE VOTES.
SB 1075 OUT OF COMMITTEE WITH
NINE VOTES. AYE. FILE ITEM
NUMBER THREE ON THE ON THE BILL,
SB 1286. THE MOTION IS TO PASS
AND REFER TO COMMITTEE ON
JUDICIARY ASESORÍA SIX VOTES.
OKAY SB 1286 SIX VOTES AND THAT
GETS OUT OF COMMITTEE AND WE ARE
ON FILE ITEM NUMBER FOUR ON THE
BILL, SB 1482. THE MOTION IS
DUE. PASS AND REFER TO COMMITTEE
ON APPROPRIATIONS. CHEN CHEN I
PETRIE-NORRIS AYE. PETRIE-NORRIS
AYE HAS NINE VOTES. SB 1482 HAS
NINE VOTES. IT GETS OUT OF
COMMITTEE AS WELL, AND WE ARE
ABOUT TO CONCLUDE, I DO WANT TO
STATE, PERSONAL PRIVILEGE. I DO
WANT TO STATE THAT THIS IS OUR
LAST COMMITTEE HEARING THAT IS
REGULARLY SCHEDULED, OF COURSE,
WE CAN ALWAYS HAVE ADDITIONAL
SPECIAL HEARING, BUT THIS IS THE
LAST ONE, AND I WANTED TO GIVE,
SPECIAL, SPECIAL THANKS, BECAUSE
IT VERY WELL MAY BE MY LAST
COMMITTEE HEARING AS CHAIR, BUT
I WANTED TO GIVE A SPECIAL
THANKS TO SECRETARY OF THE
COMMITTEE, GINA, FOR HER
THOROUGH, THOROUGH WORK AND
MAKING SURE THAT COMMITTEE IS
ALWAYS READY AND PREPARED TO DO
THE BEST JOB POSSIBLE IN
CONSIDERING BILLS, AND THEN ALSO
TO GIVE MUCH, MUCH ACCOLADE. AND
THANKS TO LUKE, AS CHIEF
CONSULTANT FOR HIS, INCREDIBLE
WORK AT ALWAYS TRYING TO GET
BILLS INTO A BETTER PLACE, AND
YOUR PASSION, YOUR IN-DEPTH
KNOWLEDGE OF THE ISSUES AND
TOPIC ARE UNMATCHED, AND YOUR
WORK ETHIC FOR BOTH OF YOU ARE
UNMATCHED AS WELL. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU TO THE
COMMITTEE MEMBERS FOR, FOR YOUR
DILIGENT, WORK AT TRYING AT,
HEARING THE BILLS AND BEING
ENGAGED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
AND WITH THAT, WE WILL ADJOURN
THE COMMITTEE HEARING. THANK YOU
. THUMBS DOWN. SIX. THANK YOU
FOR YOUR OPTIMISM. FOR I'M GONNA
TRY. YEAH.
BASE 183. FINANCE. NO.